SMS nickels VS high grade MS, can you tell the difference???

boyernumismatics

Hi all. Recently going through some nickels for a starter album with my girlfriend , and we came across some stuff I got free in packages a while back and just toss aside. She found a 1965 high grade nickel with very well defined steps for a 1965 (SMS OR MS) and it got me thinking. I'm well versed in all coins, but this is stumping me. I just simply cannot tell the difference between , persay, an SP66 SMS and a MS66 MS. Are there any differentiating marks, details, etc? If any help can be offered, it would be awesome!

Thanks to all who comment with helpful information.

Edited to add photos

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

ECHOES

ttt

ChrisH821

Not sure, there must be some way.

leothelyon

My guess, the best way is through pictures. The first is in a PCGS MS65 holder, no FS or SMS designation. Any serious collector will agree the steps are a perfect example of full steps. IMO, it grades MS66FS and has a value of $20,000 and better.

This next coin is a SMS example and again, with perfect steps. So perfect that, the 4th step segment under the 2nd pillar is visible which is remarkable if one understands the nature of the steps for the 1960's through 1967 dates.

I'll add, there are no differences other than the wear of the dies. During the transaction between the SMS and business strike dies, as I have read somewhere, an acid treatment would dull the surfaces of SMS dies before they struck the business strikes. After they struck a few nice examples of business strikes at higher coining pressure. this pressure would eventually be reduced to strike the remaining mintage to extend the life of the dies and they made millions of them, design-less, mushy detailed nickels.

Leo

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@boyernumismatics said:

My vote business strike

boyernumismatics

@leothelyon said:
My guess, the best way is through pictures. The first is in a PCGS MS65 holder, no FS or SMS designation. Any serious collector will agree the steps are a perfect example of full steps. IMO, it grades MS66FS and has a value of $20,000 and better.

This next coin is a SMS example and again, with perfect steps. So perfect that, the 4th step segment under the 2nd pillar is visible which is remarkable if one understands the nature of the steps for the 1960's through 1967 dates.

I'll add, there are no differences other than the wear of the dies. During the transaction between the SMS and business strike dies, as I have read somewhere, an acid treatment would dull the surfaces of SMS dies before they struck the business strikes. After they struck a few nice examples of business strikes at higher coining pressure. this pressure would eventually be reduced to strike the remaining mintage to extend the life of the dies and they made millions of them, design-less, mushy detailed nickels.

Leo

Thank you for the highly educational, rational, and thorough response.

I am leaning towards business strike on the question coin, as it does not scream out SMS to me, but it just seems too good to be a BS...I just can't make a decision. I've even sat the coin side by side with business strikes and SMS, but it's almost like an in between. Maybe, as you stated, it's one of the few that were struck as a BS after the SMS dies were "done?"

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

@CoinsAndMoreCoins said:
I have reviewed this excellent thread, including posted pictures and answers responsive along with the fantastic question.

I believe clarifying the terms MS and SMS may actually be beneficial since there appears to be room for ambiguity in defining one of the acronyms.

When one considers the contextual totality of the thread so far and weighs against some terms used, logic and definitions commonly assumed, I believe there is room for exception that could result in an incorrect conclusion.

That and the glossary of this forum's list of accepted acronyms eludes me for some asinine reason and I am sure I've reviewed it several time perhaps accidentally tripping over it.

Would anyone mind clarifying MS and SMS as used in this thread and does anyone have a link to the forum's glossary of terms?

...really...and with a vocabulary like that?

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Would anyone mind clarifying MS and SMS as used in this thread and does anyone have a link to the forum's glossary of terms?

MS-Mint Set
SMS- Special Mint Set

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To my understanding the Special Mint Set coins will have a razor strike,
while the Mint Set coins will be on par with, or better than a Business Strike.
I'm trying to learn here as well.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

https://www.pcgs.com/Lingo/all

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@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:
https://www.pcgs.com/Lingo/all

Thanks~

LindeDad

Try splitting the hairs on Half Dollars. Even the graders all gave up a long time ago.

19Lyds

@ECHOES said:

Would anyone mind clarifying MS and SMS as used in this thread and does anyone have a link to the forum's glossary of terms?

MS-Mint Set
SMS- Special Mint Set

Both versions were struck but once by the dies and the primary difference between MS and SMS is the SMS coins were struck with higher tonnage than the circulation strikes (MS).

https://cointalk.com/threads/question-about-sms-coins.29477/

As for the subject nickel, it is almost impossible to tell as is the case with ANY coin struck between 1965 and 1967 unless the coin had CAMEO qualities.

As such, unless someone can manage a 1 on 1 with a grader for discussion, TPG's will ALWAYS defer to SMS for well struck, high quality coins of 1965 - 1967.

I DID have an occasion where I submitted a 1966 Kennedy Half which I pulled from an original roll which was graded MS66 SMS. I responded once the grades posted with my story and the grade was changed to a straight MS66.

ECHOES

@19Lyds said:

@ECHOES said:

Would anyone mind clarifying MS and SMS as used in this thread and does anyone have a link to the forum's glossary of terms?

MS-Mint Set
SMS- Special Mint Set

Both versions were struck but once by the dies and the primary difference between MS and SMS is the SMS coins were struck with higher tonnage than the circulation strikes (MS).

Thanks Lee~

davewesen

look at the third side, the edge

SMS are very reflective and sharp corners, while business strikes have more blemishes and areas that are rounded

you can compare with coins in same general time period, like 1964-d and 1964/1968-S proof

leothelyon

@boyernumismatics said:

@leothelyon said:
My guess, the best way is through pictures. The first is in a PCGS MS65 holder, no FS or SMS designation. Any serious collector will agree the steps are a perfect example of full steps. IMO, it grades MS66FS and has a value of $20,000 and better.

This next coin is a SMS example and again, with perfect steps. So perfect that, the 4th step segment under the 2nd pillar is visible which is remarkable if one understands the nature of the steps for the 1960's through 1967 dates.

I'll add, there are no differences other than the wear of the dies. During the transaction between the SMS and business strike dies, as I have read somewhere, an acid treatment would dull the surfaces of SMS dies before they struck the business strikes. After they struck a few nice examples of business strikes at higher coining pressure. this pressure would eventually be reduced to strike the remaining mintage to extend the life of the dies and they made millions of them, design-less, mushy detailed nickels.

Leo

Thank you for the highly educational, rational, and thorough response.

I am leaning towards business strike on the question coin, as it does not scream out SMS to me, but it just seems too good to be a BS...I just can't make a decision. I've even sat the coin side by side with business strikes and SMS, but it's almost like an in between. Maybe, as you stated, it's one of the few that were struck as a BS after the SMS dies were "done?"

One basically needs to set their own rules, what one will accept as a SMS and for a business strike. The very same thing can be said about the proofs and business strikes for the dates 1968-S, 1969-S and 1970-S, again, one needs to set their own rules. Another is, did all three mints take part in striking the 1965 to 1967 nickels but yet, there are no D or S mint marks? Or did they just lay off all those workers for 3 years and Philadelphia struck all those coins? Rumors have it, they were still striking the 1964 P and D coins in 65 and 66 as well.

Leo

ChrisH821

@CoinsAndMoreCoins said:
Great! My rules say there is nothing wrong if I get bored with me hammering or pressing out the rim hit in the name of restoring a cool, yet maybe a bit common, 1984 nickel.

I think the rim on that '84 5C looks like it's been squished already.