4.3g 1859 Canadian Cent questions
Azurescens
Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭✭✭
This guy was kept with our family gold so I'm taking a leap of faith that it's brass, or suspected brass, especially since it's in circulated condition. I am not sure though. It doesn't look at all like the bronze pieces from the same date or era but that can just be the toning. The back of it certainly looks a brass color, similar to the front which has this color like a halo around the Queen.
Most of the leaves on the back have some kind of tooling work done. Only three or four don't.
I think it's a "narrow 9" even date. The N in Canada on the obverse also has some re-engraving done.
Instead of posting all of the leaves, this is what I mean.
Short of XRF, how can I tell for sure? When I first picked it up, I noticed it didn't feel like copper normally does which is why I weighed it.
Here she is and I appreciate any help or knowledge. I don't see any numbers repunched or anything, but please let me know what you see.
I'd love to learn more about this piece, as I may sell, but it's a varitable treasure trove of history so I would like to know what I've got regardless. Unfortunately I've only got Google at my fingertips and not any books with extensive research.
Thanks all so much!
Comments
That coin does not have the yellow/green hue that the brass pieces have. The odds of it being brass are about 28 in 9,000,000.
Nor does it have the markers for any of the scarce re-punched dates.
It has been drilled (started) scraped and cleaned. In this condition worth about $1.
Life member #369 of the Royal Canadian Numismatic Association
Member of Canadian Association of Token Collectors
Collector of:
Canadian coins and pre-confederation tokens
Darkside proof/mint sets dated 1960
My Ebay
Cool thanks. This year is a fascinating year for Canadian cents. It was a pleasure reading about it, especially the 1876-H, too. I appreciate the help.
It's not brass .. almost any household cleaner will turn bronze that color. I agree with Gene that it's been heavily cleaned, drilled, and led a hard life. Judging from the break in the vine at leaf 7, that coin was struck with a die made about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the 9 million mintage .. wide gap at 7 and no vine break at leaf 2.
Syl and Gene are very correct except, according to my very knowledgeable friend here in BC, there is still a small, ever so small chance of it being some form of Brass. Perhaps not the alloy found in the known brass 59s, but a lower grade alloy. there is brass and apparently there is "other lower composition brass". He also stressed that the coins appearance and color usually means very little.
On my request the OP sent me the images yesterday and I passed them on to my friend , a serious Canadian Collector of Brass 59s and other very scarce and rare Canadian numismatics.
He owns several certified brass 59s, both by ICCS and PCGS. some were XRFd and others were simply scratched with a diamond "to see the color". (ICCS)
he says the only way to buy it raw, and he would be a prospective buyer subject to certification by PCGS, is to have it xrfd but not with a handheld device.
The only thing I can think of why it was with family gold (under floorboards behind a big honking piano), it had to have meant something. Who knows maybe it was so-and-so's first metal detector find idk. I keep silly stuff with my treasures so it could be that or maybe it's worth something I dunno.
That's pretty cool you can narrow down right about when it was minted.
It's a weird color and has a weird density. I mean, you guys can't see it and my phone doesn't catch it, and I've had a lot of copper go through my hands.. it doesn't feel like 4.3g of copper "should". I am describing that wrong, or poorly, obviously 4.3g of X weighs the she name as 4.3g of Y. I placed it in my wife's hand and she's pretty n00b, and she noticed the wrong color right off the bat. It's like this coin doesn't have "a center of gravity" either.
But on the other hand the toning on the Queen looks like any old Whitman wheat cent toning I've ever seen.
If you think it might be interesting or historical or whatever I'd be glad to send it off to whomever.
The coin is not copper, it's bronze... there is very little specific gravity difference in Zinc and tin in something that small. All "brass" 59's were due to an incomplete mixing of the ingredients in the pot, where the zinc and tin separated from the copper and rose somewhat to the top. When the mixture was poured, the "zinc-heavy" stuff stayed back and a zinc-richer came out last (like grease in gravy) as it got poured into the small ingots/bricks before going through the rollers. There was a good series of articles in the Canadian Numismatic Journal by Roger Paulen about the brass cent, where many of us '59 experts helped with the data. I sent in over 500 for the study. Every "brass" '59 that I have seen came in early in the striking cycle. I think that some early '59's that were cert'd as "brass" early on were, not in fact brass, but just bronze. Once XRF came into being, it's not hard to tell what's what.. Roger has an XRF and would be glad to scope it for you. I share your wishes that it's 'brass"(or what gets cert'd as brass), but I wouldn't expect good news.
I will have to take back my statement about "brass" and the wide gap at leaf 7 ... that's if the coin in the recent Heritage Auction actually IS a "brass" cent based on an XRF scan. Here is the auction: https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/canada-victoria-brass-narrow-9-cent-1859-vf20-pcgs-/a/3054-30392.s?type=bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus The coin in the auction has a wide gap at 7 and none at 2, just like the coin from the OP. However, the OP coin was struck with a different working die than the auction coin, based upon the D/C at 5 & 15 and the stems at 12-16. BTW, the leafs are numbered 1-16 starting at 12:30 and going clockwise, with 16 at 11:30.
If this is a later-struck one that ended up as "brass", what would I expect to see on an XRF?
If it passes, what's the best grading service to send it off to for authentication? I've never slabbed non US coins except gold a long, long time ago.
Many many thanks again.
you would get a Statement containing the properties of the type of XRF unit the test was done with and a list of every metal component the coin is made of, expressed in %. And of course an invoice.
To me it looks like the normal bronze version that has been polished.
I like that date, it's an attractive design.
My YouTube Channel
Asheland
I totally agree with you. I have seen , and have, some very yellowish 59s and they are not even near to be called brass.
If the op wishes to find out, he needs to have an XRF test done. Some universities do it as part of an education thing, other schools or firms charge. My experience is anywhere from $ 75 to $ 250 . One Canadian University will do up to 8 for $ 275 plus taxes.
And sorry for the delay things have not been easy lately.
Here is the $10 handheld xrf.
Is it worth doing the $85 with full assay?
As I posted above .. it's bronze with an alloy that fits right into the 1859 study results where well over 500 random 1859's were XRF'd. I even sent in approx 15 "yellow" 1859's in the bunch, all of which turned out bronze as well ... just having been exposed to any variety of household cleaners some time in their past. If any of you are members of the RCNA, I would strongly suggest that you look in the CN Journal and read the 1859 study, authored by SPP and others, that we did on the "brass" '59's. We put a lot of work into the study and there were some very well-known contributors to the works.
One coin the top one is thinner and is also 25.75 mm in diameter, the bottom coin is thicker and 25.4 mm in diameter I have a lot of 1800's and early 1900's canadian 1/2 cent coins as well as tons of other coins, looking for offers................
Your bottom coin has been manually "squeezed or compacted, where the old edge of the coin has been compacted toward the center. It has raised the edge so that the coin appears thicker, but it's only the edge that has raised metal. The new "edge" now has reduced the denticles to 1/2 to 2/3 of their original length. Did you use a caliper to measure the diameters? The reduction in size was post-mint damage. How they did it, I don't know.
But the bottom coin is spot on 25.4mm in diameter just like it is suposed to be and if you say it was so-called squished if it was squish the vine wouldn't be right up to that lip and the coin wouldn't be the right diameter that it should be that would be an error coin yes I used a caliper well I'm sending them out to you graded in 2 weeks however I'm looking for somebody with a spectrogram right now, perhaps it is squished if that's the case there's still a break in the vine on both coins on the 2 and the 7, and the 13 vine by leaf.......all my other canadian cent from 1800's and 1900-1921 (36coins from this date range) only 3 are as this and 25.75mm in diameter(the top coin)
Comparison to a few others in my collection, please keep in mind none of these coins have ever been cleaned so there's Gunk on them as well they've been just sitting in Ziploc bags I have like 60 ziplock bags full of coins all for sale open offers
It's my opinion that you will just be throwing money away by getting those 2 coins graded. Neither of them is worth more than a dollar or 2. You need to learn a little more about 1859's before you try to find errors. EVERY single 1859 had a vine break at leaf 7 and 13, so they aren't in error; that's the norm. About halfway through the minting year, another vine break started at leaf 2. Canadian cents weren't struck again until 1876, when the provincial Vicky obverse gave way to normal Obv 1 obverses and a new Reverse. I asked about the caliper to see if you had measured the bottom coin correctly and you say that it's 25.4 which is correct. The 1858 and '59 large cents are about 1/3 thinner than those from 1876 and on and weigh 4.54 g. The thinner Canadian cents played hell with the London mint presses. The planchets were bronze instead of the copper with the Brit halfpennies and the working dies took a terrible beating in their presses. You have quite the gathering of Canadian Large Cents. Keep up the good work. What are you going to use a "spectrogram" for?
Not worth it to have any of these graded.
Listen to SYL, he is definitely an expert and probably has many hundreds if not thousands of large cents stacked away.
H ... Yes I have thousands of Vickies (almost 1000 1859's alone) and maybe a couple K's more of Eds and Geos
Well the one that is 25.4 mm in diameter is actually ( the thicker one ) weighs 4.46g