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Harz Baptismal Broad (medallic) Taler

EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited April 1, 2017 9:24PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

From my Baltimore March 2017 show thread (separating this out for easier discussion -- hopefully!):

GERMAN STATES, Harz. AR Baptismal Broad Taler. Dated March 1616, circa 1650. Zellerfeld mint.

Saint John baptizing Christ in the River Jordan. Scarce early variety. Near EF. Choice, toned.

I would appreciate some help from the membership in identifying the catalog attribution for my Harz piece. I googled, and came up with something called Knyphausen 7295, with no Katsouros #. I did a reverse google search (of Knyphausen 7295) and came up with a baptismal double taler of a different design. And, Zohar tells me that it must have a Katsouros catalog number. I have never heard of Knyphausen, and do not own a Katsouros book.

But whatever this piece is, it is very cool looking and relatively inexpensive.

I think I found my coin from a June 2016 auction in Michigan (this is consistent with when the dealer bought this piece, and he's located in MI). Look at lot 910 here: numismaticauctionsllc.com/uploads/Sale_59_Web_Version.pdf

910P. Harz. Baptismal Broad Taler, ND (c. 1670’s). Zellerfeld Mint. Often noted as 1 1/2 Taler. Christ being baptized in the River Jordan; Rx: Legend. Early type originally attributed as Bachtell 1734A. EF, reflective fields with toning in devices. Always popular and a scarcer early variety. ($500-750).

I've never heard of Knyphausen nor Bachtell. Is there really no Katsouros listing for this piece?

EVP

How does one get a hater to stop hating?

I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

Comments

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2017 11:20AM

    I feel like I'm talking to myself...

    Found a listing by Dirk Loebbers, and apparently this is 'very rare' and not listed in Katsouros nor Knyphausen, but I am not 100% certain that Dirk's coin is same as mine (because I see minor variations): https://ma-shops.de/loebbers/item.php5?id=121116021

    His coin's image:

    My coin's image:

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And, Pater calls this a Knyphausen 7295 variant (7295 is a 2T-sized piece).

    https://ma-shops.com/pater/item.php5?id=1511130506&lang=en&curr=EUR

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • IosephusIosephus Posts: 872 ✭✭✭

    Interesting topic, and seeing three pieces all from different dies. Are these catalogued down to individual die varieties in the literature?

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Iosephus said:
    Interesting topic, and seeing three pieces all from different dies. Are these catalogued down to individual die varieties in the literature?

    Thanks for knocking me from my schizophrenic path. I have no clue if these are catalogued down to the different dies (and die states) used. My guess is not, because it's the rare reference that has that much detailed information and that would require blow up pictures with circles, arrows and special highlights.

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the process of trying to find more info on the three pieces of this type that I own I came upon this older thread. From what I've been able to glean from multiple searches there are basically two main types of this taler/medal, all broad and thin, 52 - 53 mm and about 28+ - 29+ grams. All references that I've found say they were minted in Zellerfeld in the Harz mountains of Lower Saxony.

    The first main type is supposedly minted circa 1620 - 1680 and are undated. Here are the two that I currently own.

    Number 1, 53 mm, 28.8 grams, medallic or medal orientation.

    Number 2, 52 mm, 28.3 grams, coin orientation.

    The second main type I've coma across appear to be minted between 1701 to around 1780 or so, also at the Zellerfeld mint and a scroll has been added to the top of the reverse, sometimes with a date (mine is dated 1744) and the inscription under the scroll is 8 or 9 lines instead of 10 lines as in the first type.

    Number 3, here's mine, 52 mm, 29.3 grams, medal orientation.

    Any information on these or any other discussions since this 2 plus year old thread will be appreciated.

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

  • tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FYI, From the original post "Dated March 1616, circa 1650". The reference to March 1616 is actually a reference to the Gospel according to Mark Chapter 16 Verse 16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zohar said:

    Do you own that coin Zohar ?

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:

    @Zohar said:

    Do you own that coin Zohar ?

    Yes

  • tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zohar said:

    @bidask said:

    @Zohar said:

    Do you own that coin Zohar ?

    Yes

    The detail on that coin is outstanding. I like it a lot.

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭

    I must have missed this thread the first time around. I really like the design on these Harz issues. I don't think they get the attention they deserve since they orbit outside the Davenport realm.

    1753 Katsouros-23 ; 50 mm
    NGC AU-58

    1680 2T Knyphausen-7295; 63 mm
    NGC AU-58

    Obv: Scene of John the Baptist baptizing Christ in the river Jordan / Rev: Ten-line inscription references three verses from the bible which focus on baptism: Galatians 3:26-27, Titus 3:5-7, and 1 Peter 3:21. Denomination "2" stamped at the bottom.

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