Spread between gold and platinum over $300 -- again!
Overdate
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$1251 gold.
$950 platinum.
Will this be a long-term trend?
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Man I wish I was in position to buy some platinum.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I've added a few pamp 1/2 oz bars lately
This makes me want a couple moe'
Palladium and Rhodium I think are partially to blame for the larger than usual spread
Sango, I think you might be on to something with your Palladium and Rhodium theory. I had just thought it was the usual GOLD FEVER!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I suspect it is more an issue of overvaluation of gold vs platinum being cheap.
We need more platformate!
The primary use of platinum is for catalytic converters. Maybe people see future demand dropping with new technology such as electric cars.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Could be a factor. Maybe another factor is because gold is touted as the SHTF option by the radio hucksters. I have never heard an ad for PlatinumLine.
Me neither but there's a movie called Platliners that could get things rolling.
I think years ago the spike in platinum made auto manufacturers switch to palladium. That caused palladium to bump up and platinum to go down. Platinum use will never increase because of auto use again , that is over with. Rhodium of course is a grift of epic proportions .
There is no demand for platinum or palladium coins and there never will be
if you own platinum bought near the previous high you will wait a generation to break even
""" if you own platinum bought near the previous high you will wait a generation to break even"
25 years for Platinum to reach $2000? Not the with way the money supply is expanding.
In real terms though, you might be correct.
Platinum used to carry double the price of gold before it was so sought after by the auto industry, I don't think that matters all that much, it still is shrinking/demand outpaces supply/7x rare than the good stuff
I think I'm much higher on it at today's spread than most here. It's the wild card, but at 4 ounces to every 3 of gold, yes I am a fan.
Would you rather have
3 Gold Eagles
4 platinum maples
I know which I'd choose. I'm jumping on before it's back up over a grand.
I am with you on the platinum, Sango. Rather than the Maples I would look at the low pop fractional eagles.
The biggest negative I can see with holding Platinum is the higher premiums relative to the other precious metals (outside rhodium)
Those aren't all that high where I'm looking right now
in fact, they may be the lowest I've seen in some time
Near 5 year lows in price, lowest prems I can remember, no new discoveries, not enough 'above ground supply' to last very long (can't recycle it all), and .75 in relation to gold = a short term and long term winner. Your mileage my vary.
Whether its a grand or 1500 , the demand is so thin that at sell time you will always have to look up the food chain at sell time. The spread will be $100 or wider against you . Assuming you took a beating when you bought(a pretty safe assumption ), you are going to need a $200 pop to break even.
Why not just smash yourself in the head with a hammer until you fall over?
Most commodities are way down these days and platinum surely follows that trend. Just 9 years ago Pt was $2300/oz. In March of 2008 it went from $2300 to $1800 in two weeks! Like a barrel over Niagara Falls.
Spread not usually that wide on the against even in rhodium, bronco, you might over exaggerated just a bit there.
Or perhaps pointers on how and when to sell physical
True,
But monetary base and M2 supply alone states that these commodities won't be parked for long.
And that's without the potential of the usd no longer being world reserve currency in the coming future -- then you can compound the problem 10 fold. But that's still down the road a decade (if we're lucky)
You can't sell physical platinum except at a discount to spot unless you are APMEX or the mint . Or you find a rube ( 5 years into a down market that herd has been pretty well thinned ). You can't buy it except at a premium to spot unless you have a store or find the aforementioned rube. Buying is tough even with a store because the poor soul walking in the physical you are trying to buy is upside down and angry about it.
The wide spread is part of the reason its thinly traded , buyers and sellers won't budge unless they are desperate. Conversely or maybe additionally the reason the spread is wide is because its thinly traded ! (because the spread is wide!!!( because its thinly traded????)) . call it a mexican standoff maybe or better yet call it mutually assured destruction .
Why would anyone want platinum? Its priced similar to gold ( duh just buy gold) it resembles silver(just buy silver) . Okay the designs are interesting on some of the APE's . Open a business , copy them on 1 oz copper rounds , talk them up and sell them to the unwashed masses on ebay .
Look palladium took platinum's place in catalytic converters but demand for palladium cats is in the toilet. I have around 10 of them that are sitting under my workbench. The offer on them at $800 spot is the same as it was at $600 spot . To me that means the demand isn't there for that either.
I've always gotten full spot when I sell scrap platinum jewelry.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I'm not going to invest in a 50+lb brick of catalyst.
If you can't see a difference here, I can't help you. Same with palladium. Entirely different metal, demand, and known reserves are far higher.
We're talking in circles. Luckily, good man, different strokes for diff folks, and none of us know the future for certain, and thank goodness. It would make this all pointless if we did
Cheers
I love gold, and don't even know how I got into this position, other than to say that I love all PMs vs fiat garbage, and I most love opportunity. Platinum today offers a fantastic one, imo.
Jewelry is a funny market . Scrap buyers probably see 100 gold rings to every platinum ring so maybe they can easily resell them.
So all these sales were to "rubes"?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-US-Mint-10-1-10oz-9995-Platinum-American-Eagle-Uncirculated-Bullion-Coin-/172577287637?hash=item282e686dd5:g:FqwAAOSwdGFYyZ8J 168% of spot
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-1-10-Oz-American-Eagle-Platinum-Coin-W-Box-COA-11722-/302260458598?hash=item4660209466:g:JuoAAOSwSlBY0sUw 190% of spot
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-1-10-ounce-platinum-american-eagle-uncirculated-/282404799804?hash=item41c0a3453c:g:5loAAOSwuLZY0aVQ 145% of spot
And this stuff is just recent sales of un slabbed bullion. I wonder if I could sell my 2004 1/4oz on the BST for just over spot? I guarantee it would be gone in 10 minutes for spot + $10!
Ya those are rubes if they are buying slabbed bullion , in other news water is wet
. If you want to sell one coin at spot on the bst then fine it will sell I won't argue that but why would you do that? If you bought it when spot was higher and paid a premium then that is a disaster .
Those links are specifically for UN slabbed bullion. In fact, you cannot find a single APE that has sold in the last week on ebay for under 105% of spot. So your position that only apmex and the mint can get above spot is simply not true. And the 2004 1/4oz was bought by me, from a buddy at melt on Tuesday ($242). My bullion friends and I all BST at current melt values on items we wish to unload.
Unslabbed , slabbed whichever . If bullion sells for 168% of melt it is a sure sign that the buyer's momma dropped him on his head a few dozen times .
105% of spot is really getting 90% of spot if ebay is the venue . Meanwhile 1000 ounces of gold sell and probably 50,000 ounces of silver while platinum sits amongst the tumbleweeds .
I can state unequivocably that selling nice platinum for a good premium on ebay right now is not exactly a piece of cake.
I knew it would happen.
Looking at ebay's platinum bullion category I see 17 sold items combined March 30 and 31st up until 1030 in the morning.
Looking at gold bullion category same rough timespan around 650 sales , I'll go out on a limb and say some of those 650 are multiple items sales on a single buy now listing.
to make a water analogy
Gold sales on ebay or silver sales on ebay = niagra falls
Platinum sales on ebay = lawn sprinkler
Palladium sales on ebay = leaky faucet
So Platinum is more rare than silver and gold?!?!?
You don't say.
I think people have made some good points on both sides and it has enlightened me some. Thanks,
BC
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
there are over 2100 listings and there were 17 sales .
When the market changes, sometimes they trip all over themselves to buy platinum. It does fluctuate.
I knew it would happen.
Thanks for this post guys. I read it last night and decided maybe now is a good time to buy. I looked around and was able to pick up 4 platinum bars this morning for melt .... first platinum I've owned in about 5 years
Got lucky finding a dealer I've used in the past who happened to need some cash ... just good timing really.
Now to go sell some gold for 2%-5% over melt to put some funds back in the bank
AlmostOver 100 successful deals on this forum spanning well over 10 years now, feel free to ask for references!Good stuff, Jim!
I plan to make another move on some in the coming days
There are now 3 things I can't do anymore
post pics inline , post links cleanly the old way with a title , and use the pound sign in a post without it making the text gigantic
What does rare have to do with it??? Lol, is it a bst listing???, rare don't mean squat...
^^
If you say so!
I'm pretty sure the #of listings (whatever that determines) has always and will always be at a much lower clip than the other two. It only makes sense that way. Regardless of spot ask/bid in the paper world
You should see wide buy sell spreads , and low sell through rates . Neither of which is your friend, .
If there was no paper bid on platinum it would be pretty much worthless...
Ebays Platinum bullion category stagnant 10 million dollars in inventory , sell through rate of less than 1% .
As charlie sheen would say WINNING!!!
It's too bad bullion direct went belly up. Their platinum nucleo page was always good for a laugh.
The bad news ............Seller A has 45 lots 1/10 APE Ask $200 Buyer A wants 2 lots 1/10 APE bid $85
The good news don't sweat the 1% commission you only pay that if an order actually executes
,
I am seeing 1/10 APE's being sold all the time on eBay if they start at $.99 true auctions. About 20 show up in the sold listings over the past week from what I can see. Average selling price is $164.38 for the last 17 that I can see (Not best offer accepted) for graded and ungraded. They are averaging about 3 sold per day with a pretty nice premium over melt.
What's going to happen to these if platinum prices see a nice surge?
I tried linking completed ebay sales for Bronco showing very similar results. Yet even with the proof staring him in the face, his obvious bias against platinum is severely clouding his judgement on the matter. I wish Bronco could show me JUST ONE example of a "dog" sale of platinum on ebay in the past few weeks.....just a single one that could semi-validate his claims. He cant...because he is wrong.
Ok I looked at your links , so what ? You linked to 3 of the dumbest buyers on ebay , they came in 1 2 3 in the contest for who is going to be buried the longest.
How do you not think a guy that pays %195 of melt for a 1/10 platinum coin is an idiot ? Call them rubes , victims of shill bidding , drunk bidders , who knows maybe his kid bid on it accidentally .
Buy coin for $180 bring to coin shop for $70 offer sounds great lose $110 in one day sign me up. Or not wanting to lose all that sell coin on ebay lets see to net $180 on resale you would have to get $205 sale price unless you have a store so how does that happen? The high for the year was $1150 so if only it would go back up to that and it sells for a $80 premium why then you could break even.
Why not just buy gold ? Too simple? Stacking is about preserving wealth , flipping for a profit at times , maybe riding out a dip or two.
Here is your 5 year platinum chart , look like a buy here?
Bronco, your debate and logic skills need some brushing up on! You began this debate with the statement "You can't sell physical platinum except at a discount to spot unless you are APMEX or the mint." I (and others as well) have shown you that you are absolutely, unequivocally wrong. 100% wrong. The debate has nothing to do with how long YOU THINK someone might be "buried" in platinum if they pay a premium today. That is pure speculation, not fact. I am challenging your specific statement that "You can't sell physical platinum except at a discount to spot unless you are APMEX or the mint." This statement is pure hyperbole and totally incorrect.
And oh, Bronco.....care to share the 5 year gold and silver charts as well? Or do they not support your ridiculous narrative? They look about the same as the 5 yr plat chart you posted above! Ooooops!
So maybe all 3 PMs are dead money for awhile?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I think that the charts are very similar. My argument is that when it comes to physical the devil is in the details.
People are still making money with physical gold and silver every day buying dips and selling into rallys . The huge spreads and miniscule volume when it comes to platinum and palladium makes it very difficult.
Just for comparison sold and completed listings recorded back to dec 28th 2016 ignoring multiple quantity listings as I don't see any way to process that
GOLD
25,000 listings live , 3921 auction , sold 55,000, completed 76,000 is this indicating a 72% sell through? not really yes no maybe in any event sold listings are double the number of live listings
SILVER
93,000 live,14,400 auctions 202,000 sold, 272,000 completed 74% sell through ??? , sold listings are double the number of live listings
Platinum
2298 live , 158 auctions , 1746 sold , 3826 completed 45% sell through?? sold listings lower than the number of live listings (low volume extends to completed sales as well) 479 solds were under $100 , those are grams or grains (suckers) mostly although a few tenths sold under $100 and some jewelry
Palladium
269 live , 32 auction , 267 sold , 396 completed 67% sell through , sold about equal to live listings. Half the sell prices were under $100 , that is proportionally a lot of gram and grain sized bars(more suckers) since tenths and jewelry aren't a thing really.
If I'm underwater because I guessed wrong on future prices at least with gold and silver I can take consolation in the fact that I will be able to liquidate quickly through multiple channels , online , in person at a storefront , in person through at a gun show or craigslist or flea market vendor or even a friend . Online through APMEX or provident or ebay or 1000 other sources . With silver and gold I can also enjoy collecting coins . There are no real platinum or palladium coins that would interest a collector ,slabbed MS70 (suckers again) , key dates( still more SUCKERS) there is no history associated with either metal.
Load up on platinum and palladium and no you won't sell at a shop except at a discount to spot , no not at a gun show , not on craigslist or a flea market . Want an offer from APMEX , better have $10,000 in one lump to sell . EBAY is the only real 2 way platinum and palladium physical market for small sellers. Maybe those 3 idiots that paid way over melt will still be there when you need them.
Good luck passing platinum or palladium on to heirs . They will get slaughtered shops will probably try to buy it as silver
About the only thing either metal is good for is offsetting a capital gain somewhere else , or if you are crafty enough turning over to a vindictive ex-wife as part of a settlement.
In closing if for some perverse reason you wish to lose money hand over fist , instead of platinum or palladium why not try stamp collecting? Since the USPS went to forever stamps at least your kids will be able to liquidate your collection by mailing letters
Gold $1253
Platinum $939
Four ounces of platinum = three ounces of gold. Who would have guessed?
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I'm seeing more tire-kickers right now, so maybe it's getting ready to turn.
I absolutely dislike the games people play on ebay.
I had one guy who said he needed "high resolution pics" in order to "bid aggressively" but that was a couple weeks ago and when he didn't bid (on a very nice coin by the way), I noticed that he also had a healthy inventory of Plats that he is trying to sell.
Then, I had another guy who wanted me to list a coin as "make offer" so that he could make me an offer I'd probably choke on for a key coin. So I raised the price on that coin. lol.
But this week, quite a few more "lookers". Hmmm.
I knew it would happen.