What Chinese Morgan Dollars are made of
dcarr
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Sometimes, the cheapest "pot metal".
I over-struck this one a couple years ago (2014 Moonlight Mint Open House), just now got around to photographing it.
This is the only such piece I ever attempted to overstrike. And it is the only one that split like this.
The inside is a different color and looks like it is made out of fiberboard (it is "metal", though).
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Comments
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xrf that puppy and get back with us!
ive posted xrf along with other people, here, but not for these crappy things.
since ive unfortunately never scanned one, now my curiosity is piqued!
edited to add:
i find it more than a little disturbing you were able to get such a quality look from your die using such a crappy metal/flan. if there is a chinese dan carr doppleganger, we are up the creek!
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wow, a counterfeit split planchet
Looks like an amalgam of twenty different metals. Wow.
Pot metal? Strange ! Boy you got me. They musta found something non magnetic.
it makes me sick to look at it very long.
When the Chinese make counterfeit car parts such as brake shoes and steering mechanisms they have a lot of leftover pot metal that they used to make equally crappy coins.
Cool!!!
I'd be curious to know if it has measurable levels of common e-waste elements like lead, cadmium, tin, zinc, etc. They had to stop putting cadmium in jewelry so who knows what they're doing with it now.
Great to see what happens and what the insides look like.
It would be interesting to find out what these planchets are really made of.
Imagine what you get at a Chinese KFC!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Wow.
Looking at the nastiness inside, do you think the blank planchets are cast?
Well that's cool. Looks like a metallic version of pressed wood chip board.
How much?
After it broke open like that I'm surprised a "fortune" did not come out of that "cookie".
seeing something like this, and knowing the low quality of some other products that China makes, it is hard to understand the economic difficulty they are causing us.
Years ago, when schools still had wood and metal shop classes, we did some casting (i.e. ashtrays, name plates). So much depended on the metal mix. I recall seeing some 'split' products and it was attributed to the junk metal melted for casting. If I recall correctly, the instructor blamed it on some tin and cadmium in the melt mix. Never had that problem casting bullets.. use mainly wheel weights, however, years ago, also used scrap print type lead we would get from the local newspaper printer. Cheers, RickO
Although I would never defend the Chinese counterfeit operation, perhaps the reason why this item split was that it was not re-annealed. It is a well known fact that when a planchet needs to be struck multiple times to bring up the design, it must be heated between each blow from the dies to prevent a result such as this. The junk metal that makes up these things undoubtedly makes the result look worse, but if you had heated the time before you struck the counterstamp over it, the results might have been better.
What's amazing to me is how the over-strike area "lustered up" so nicely.
Cartwheels on counterfeits.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
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The dull grey color of the coins is a giveaway.
Typical 'stress fracture' of metal caused by crystallization of the molten metal when it solidified. IE; not a metal intended to be re-struck with out being completely contained.
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would you consider polishing part of the rim to see how many licks it takes to get to the candy center?
I think that the dull gray color actually helps to sell the thing as genuine. Silver coins can take on this look. The Chinese technique of making their "silver dollars" look worn and toned is one of the reasons why they continue to sell to the flea market trade and pop up with alarming regularity on eBay.
Why counterfeit a 1901 O Morgan? A 1901 S would give you more bang for your buck!
there are counterfeited common date lincolns
Well MsMorrisine that makes no ...sense at all....
But the higher-priced 1901-S would probably come under greater scrutiny -- more likely detected as fake.
And the lower-priced 1901-O might have more potential buyers/victims. So I'd expect it's easier to sell quickly.
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I'm confused with your statement: "It is a well known fact that when a planchet needs to be struck multiple times to bring up the design, it must be heated between each blow from the dies to prevent a result such as this."
I was taught that "vintage" U.S. Proof coins were struck twice with polished dies on polished planchets. None of the books I read or my instructors told us the coins were annealed between the two strikes. Looks like that "fact (?)" it is not as well known as you believe. Who is correct? You or long time numismatic lore? Were our vintage proofs struck twice? Were they annealed between strikes?
way cool, i never seen that before. you learn something every day here for sure
And wouldn't the alignment after an annealing between strikes be super critical to avoid the ghosting some times seen on Dan's over-strikes?
I believe that a coin (or planchet) has to be annealed before each time it is struck. Business strike coins, was very few exceptions, (the 1907 high relief $20 is the only item that comes to mind.) are annealed and struck only once. Proof coins were supposed to have been struck twice, but I've read conflicting views on that.
Who cares about the split.
When is an issue of 25 ea. coming out.
Minus the China sourced understrike.
"Counterfeit"
Cast counterfeit piece of junk! can you see any smoothed down pour mark on the coins rim?
I have a small box of counterfeits I keep for education purposes, definitely some chinese counterfeits in there, I should pop them in my spectrometer for kicks.
all around collector of many fine things
actually now that I think of it, since the strike impressed on the coin has made a smooth surface to the core it would make a perfect spectrometer reading. If you wanted to send me the coin I would be happy to do an analysis.
all around collector of many fine things
@BillJones poster: " I believe that a coin (or planchet) has to be annealed before each time it is struck. Business strike coins, was very few exceptions, (the 1907 high relief $20 is the only item that comes to mind.) are annealed and struck only once. "
Thanks for your reply. That's what I believe/was taught.
My confusion with your post is with regard to Proof coins and when they are annealed:
"Proof coins were supposed to have been struck twice, but I've read conflicting views on that."
Do you recall where you read the conflicting views? Perhaps "modern" Proofs are only struck once. I never cared to find out about how many times Proof coins produced after the introduction of horizontal presses. Now I wish to know
- thanks! Also, was the place you found "conflicting views" the same place where the "implied" notion that Proofs were struck once, annealed, then struck again was written?
There is a lot of misinformation on the www. I feel that informed, knowledgeable, numismatists such as yourself help keep things "straight."
If you believe Wikipedia, which I usually do with a few grains of salt, here is what they say as far as striking proof coins:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_coinage
edited to add:
This video is a segment from "How It's Made", the popular Discovery Channel show.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y0gR9Fn5qsQ
It mentions annealing but only before the striking begins. Also that modern Proof get struck twice.
This is a cast coin, the majority of the obvious fakes are, you can easily distinguish them from their pitting marks to a dimpled surface, struck silver/gold/or even base metal do exist but it is more common for older counterfeits to be cast/poured and this coin exhibits these characteristics.
all around collector of many fine things
@coinpro76 I disagree. This fake is die struck. From what I have learned, the majority of "silver type" counterfeits seen after 1975 are not casts. They are struck with crude dies on crude alloys. That makes them look cast to the naked eye.
@BillJones
@Kudbegud Thanks. That means proofs are STILL struck twice and THEY ARE NOT ANNEALED between strikes.
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Yes you are correct and it is possible this could just be one of the crude die strikes, however I still believe it to be cast, just my opinion. You are probably more likely correct tho.
Maybe Dan can clear this up for us.
all around collector of many fine things
The host "coin" was die-struck. I didn't show any pictures of the edge, but there is no casting seam. The edge reeding, while somewhat deformed in places, is pretty sharp. If I remember correctly, I think I bead-blasted and burnished the thing before over-striking it so as to remove the fake (painted on) patina that it had.
I will probably get an XRF test done on it this weekend.
I believe that most modern proofs are struck twice (with no re-annealing in between). The first strike forms the vast majority of the details. But with the amount of metal movement from that, there will be some luster. The second strike does not really add any additional details. But since there is much less metal movement, the effect of the second strike is mainly to impart the surface texture (frosting / polishing) of the die onto the coin.
The only time that annealing is performed between strikes is on medals. A coin struck in a collar and removed from that collar will not fit back in that collar again for a second strike. But many medals are broad-struck and they can be struck and re-annealed many times. After the last strike, the perimeter (edge) is typically machined smooth.
Dan, do share XRF results with us. I wish one (XRF) was more readily available hereabouts.
Well, just Love coins, period.
The guts of that POS looks like sintered metal. Cheap crap that can be struck from crude blanks that can be thinly plated to hide the crystalline nature of the sintered metal.
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Every toilet in the world flushes to china.
Here is the XRF test results for this thing:
72% copper
23% zinc
1% tin
4% nickel
The nickel component is the outer plating that covers up the brassy color.
Artificial dirt and tarnish was applied on top of the nickel to make it dull.
I assumed they were made of sugar and spice and everything nice
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What is "artificial dirt" made out of? Is it a soy product?
More importantly, did this Morgan grade?
The metal kind of reminds me of this .... It's a 50\50 alloy of zinc and lead.
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At least it's not toxic or radioactive.
Nickel plated brass. How anticlimactic. I was expecting it to include melamine and cat.
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