It is a guess, just as it is a guess as to who will win the college hoops tourney. I suspect that no team is lower than even money, yet indeed one will win and three will go home in tears.
I have no specific information regarding PED use by Greg Maddux and that is where my guess of 35% comes from. In Bonds later years I would have pegged the likelihood at 95%. Tiger Woods at 85% and Lance Armstrong at 90+ percent.
Average MLBer at close to 50% with the skinny guys like Maddux dropping to the 35% range.
I saw your previous post before edit and I never mentioned anything about steroids impact on speed or strength. I have a pretty decent understanding as to how PEDs can help an athlete.
I understand that your guessing and I would have little problem if you had some sort of evidence to back up your claims. It seems, however, your evidence is mostly that because other people did it, so must have maddux. I don't like conjecture and baseless claims being thrown around.
Anything is possible, and my methodology is not perfect, but the evidence just doesn't point to maddux using. Sorry. You continually raise other scenarios and reference other players and sports because you have no evidence to bring to the table against maddux. It doesn't help your argument at all.
@craig44 said:
I understand that your guessing and I would have little problem if you had some sort of evidence to back up your claims. It seems, however, your evidence is mostly that because other people did it, so must have maddux. I don't like conjecture and baseless claims being thrown around.
How does a 35%-65% probability imply that Maddux must have used PED's?
If I was in a darkened poker room with Dallasactuary and was forced on an even money wager of my last $100 to choose either yes Maddux was a cheater or no he was not. I would bet not.
If offered 3 to 1 on yes, I would say yes.
A moot point though as it is unlikely that it can be proven one way or the other
He who accuses bears the burden of proof. Your 35-65% guess of the probability of a player juicing is both baseless and useless. A player either did or didn't cheat. There is no grey area. This one is black or white. You think there is a "chance" maddux cheated. That's fine, where is your evidence? The floor is yours. However, you have no evidence so you try to handicap it as if you were a vegas odds maker. Well, with no evidence, your "odds" have absolutely no value. They are, as you say, only guesses.
That is the unfortunate legacy of the drug era which was tolerated and even encouraged by MLB. The burden of proof is on the athlete and his defenders, not the cynics.
I wish I could fix that for you Craig, but I can't.
Nope, that's the sort of statement one makes when they have no evidence to back up their claims. All you are bringing to the table in this discussion are guesses and conjecture. And by the way, I'm a big boy. You don't have to fix anything for me.
@craig44 said:
Just saw an awesome Maddux stat. In his career he faced 20,421 batters. Only 310 ever made it to a 3-0 count. 177 of those were on intentional walks. Now that is efficient.
You should probably edit your post, since it was proven to be incorrect.
Your fixation on Romo has become a bit creepy, DM.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@Coinstartled said:
...and you think that Maddux was squeaky clean?
Considering he was all about pinpoint control and while his fastball was about typical for a MLB pitcher, it wasn't anything special as far as speed goes. PED's might make you throw harder(?) but it won't help at all throwing the ball exactly where you want it. Right?
Estil; PEDS are often used for quicker recovery from hard workouts as well as injury. Athletes professional and amateur have a number of indications to get juiced.
It amazes me how a complimentary post such as the OP here seem to always digress into PEDs. I got no dog in the fight, and my eyes began to glaze over as I tried to follow this thread. It appears to me that 99%+ of comments are conjecture, innuendo, personal feelings/beliefs, or just somebody's guess because of an uptick in a player's performance.
I'm not naïve enough to think PEDs are not used or haven't been used...after all, we're talkin' serious money in contracts for performance, thus the temptation to continue to excel and not get sent down. Yes, some players have been nailed, some openly admit and others just shrug their shoulders. In my book, ANY player caught using should be severely punished. It hurts the validity of the game for their personal gain, not for the sake of the game itself, or the fans who pony up some pretty stout coin to watch these prima donnas play a kid's game. Greed and ego.
So, I reached out to duckduck and came up with this link that may be more than anyone would ever want to know about PEDs and the effect on baseball players. www.Statsinthewild.com, An Emperical Look at PEDs in baseball.
As an aside, having lived in Atlanta for a long, long time and periodically watched Maddux pitch here and in Orlando, along with untold number of local sports broadcasts on and about him, I seriously doubt that he was a user of anything but God given talent.
@MCMLVTopps said:
It amazes me how a complimentary post such as the OP here seem to always digress into PEDs. I got no dog in the fight, and my eyes began to glaze over as I tried to follow this thread. It appears to me that 99%+ of comments are conjecture, innuendo, personal feelings/beliefs, or just somebody's guess because of an uptick in a player's performance.
I'm not naïve enough to think PEDs are not used or haven't been used...after all, we're talkin' serious money in contracts for performance, thus the temptation to continue to excel and not get sent down. Yes, some players have been nailed, some openly admit and others just shrug their shoulders. In my book, ANY player caught using should be severely punished. It hurts the validity of the game for their personal gain, not for the sake of the game itself, or the fans who pony up some pretty stout coin to watch these prima donnas play a kid's game. Greed and ego.
So, I reached out to duckduck and came up with this link that may be more than anyone would ever want to know about PEDs and the effect on baseball players. www.Statsinthewild.com, An Emperical Look at PEDs in baseball.
As an aside, having lived in Atlanta for a long, long time and periodically watched Maddux pitch here and in Orlando, along with untold number of local sports broadcasts on and about him, I seriously doubt that he was a user of anything but God given talent.
I totally agree with your views on PED usage AND your statement on Maddux.
""" I seriously doubt that he was a user of anything but God given talent."""
That may well be true. To discuss MLB players that participated during the PED era while ignoring the possibility that they were involved is shortsighted.
All on this forum are fans to a certain degree but hopefully old enough to have outgrown the "say it ain't so" simplicity that we first experienced.
That may well be true. To discuss MLB players that participated during the PED era while ignoring the possibility that they were involved is shortsighted.
You have managed to totally trash this thread with your inane assertions that Maddux was a user. First you say no, then the 35%, your buddies in the gym, Golic, Arnold...geez, you've got just about everybody in this thread except Mother Teresa...surely she was a user, wasn't she? Heaven knows, with all the good she did, surely she needed PEDs to keep up the pace in all those nasty places. Do you not see the silliness of your ongoing posts? Perhaps not, but others do...its ok, we get it, just keep posting with your hate on Maddux tripe.
Your logic is myopic and skewed. You have no proof, only your obvious disdain for baseball players in general, as you have no hero in baseball. So, you mess up an otherwise very complimentary thread about Maddux with your broken record repetition ad nauseam about your unproven allegations of Maddux being a PED user.
As for baseball heros, well, if you check the definition, you'll see that there are a plethora of heros that went into WW11 in their prime. I'd certainly put Ted Williams in the category for what he sacrificed.
I'll not add more to this thread, you are the kind of person that must post over and over and over...you can't help it and again, the majority of us here "get it". Constantly insisting that a person is, or has done something illegal, for personal gain, and having zippo proof, speaks volumes of who you are.
Comments
It is a guess, just as it is a guess as to who will win the college hoops tourney. I suspect that no team is lower than even money, yet indeed one will win and three will go home in tears.
I have no specific information regarding PED use by Greg Maddux and that is where my guess of 35% comes from. In Bonds later years I would have pegged the likelihood at 95%. Tiger Woods at 85% and Lance Armstrong at 90+ percent.
Average MLBer at close to 50% with the skinny guys like Maddux dropping to the 35% range.
I saw your previous post before edit and I never mentioned anything about steroids impact on speed or strength. I have a pretty decent understanding as to how PEDs can help an athlete.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Mike Golic acknowledged using steroids to recover from an injury, not to enhance performance. Is that not a logical possibility in the case of Maddux.
I understand that your guessing and I would have little problem if you had some sort of evidence to back up your claims. It seems, however, your evidence is mostly that because other people did it, so must have maddux. I don't like conjecture and baseless claims being thrown around.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Anything is possible, and my methodology is not perfect, but the evidence just doesn't point to maddux using. Sorry. You continually raise other scenarios and reference other players and sports because you have no evidence to bring to the table against maddux. It doesn't help your argument at all.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
How does a 35%-65% probability imply that Maddux must have used PED's?
If I was in a darkened poker room with Dallasactuary and was forced on an even money wager of my last $100 to choose either yes Maddux was a cheater or no he was not. I would bet not.
If offered 3 to 1 on yes, I would say yes.
A moot point though as it is unlikely that it can be proven one way or the other
He who accuses bears the burden of proof. Your 35-65% guess of the probability of a player juicing is both baseless and useless. A player either did or didn't cheat. There is no grey area. This one is black or white. You think there is a "chance" maddux cheated. That's fine, where is your evidence? The floor is yours. However, you have no evidence so you try to handicap it as if you were a vegas odds maker. Well, with no evidence, your "odds" have absolutely no value. They are, as you say, only guesses.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That is the unfortunate legacy of the drug era which was tolerated and even encouraged by MLB. The burden of proof is on the athlete and his defenders, not the cynics.
I wish I could fix that for you Craig, but I can't.
Nope, that's the sort of statement one makes when they have no evidence to back up their claims. All you are bringing to the table in this discussion are guesses and conjecture. And by the way, I'm a big boy. You don't have to fix anything for me.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You should probably edit your post, since it was proven to be incorrect.
Well....we know Romo didn't take PED's.....maybe PDD's....Performance Decreasing Drugs!!
Your fixation on Romo has become a bit creepy, DM.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I guess I just despise his worthless POS performances in big games! Can't wait to see him go.
Considering he was all about pinpoint control and while his fastball was about typical for a MLB pitcher, it wasn't anything special as far as speed goes. PED's might make you throw harder(?) but it won't help at all throwing the ball exactly where you want it. Right?
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Estil; PEDS are often used for quicker recovery from hard workouts as well as injury. Athletes professional and amateur have a number of indications to get juiced.
It amazes me how a complimentary post such as the OP here seem to always digress into PEDs. I got no dog in the fight, and my eyes began to glaze over as I tried to follow this thread. It appears to me that 99%+ of comments are conjecture, innuendo, personal feelings/beliefs, or just somebody's guess because of an uptick in a player's performance.
I'm not naïve enough to think PEDs are not used or haven't been used...after all, we're talkin' serious money in contracts for performance, thus the temptation to continue to excel and not get sent down. Yes, some players have been nailed, some openly admit and others just shrug their shoulders. In my book, ANY player caught using should be severely punished. It hurts the validity of the game for their personal gain, not for the sake of the game itself, or the fans who pony up some pretty stout coin to watch these prima donnas play a kid's game. Greed and ego.
So, I reached out to duckduck and came up with this link that may be more than anyone would ever want to know about PEDs and the effect on baseball players. www.Statsinthewild.com, An Emperical Look at PEDs in baseball.
As an aside, having lived in Atlanta for a long, long time and periodically watched Maddux pitch here and in Orlando, along with untold number of local sports broadcasts on and about him, I seriously doubt that he was a user of anything but God given talent.
I totally agree with your views on PED usage AND your statement on Maddux.
""" I seriously doubt that he was a user of anything but God given talent."""
That may well be true. To discuss MLB players that participated during the PED era while ignoring the possibility that they were involved is shortsighted.
All on this forum are fans to a certain degree but hopefully old enough to have outgrown the "say it ain't so" simplicity that we first experienced.
................
That escalated quickly. And poof goes this thread
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That may well be true. To discuss MLB players that participated during the PED era while ignoring the possibility that they were involved is shortsighted.
You have managed to totally trash this thread with your inane assertions that Maddux was a user. First you say no, then the 35%, your buddies in the gym, Golic, Arnold...geez, you've got just about everybody in this thread except Mother Teresa...surely she was a user, wasn't she? Heaven knows, with all the good she did, surely she needed PEDs to keep up the pace in all those nasty places. Do you not see the silliness of your ongoing posts? Perhaps not, but others do...its ok, we get it, just keep posting with your hate on Maddux tripe.
Your logic is myopic and skewed. You have no proof, only your obvious disdain for baseball players in general, as you have no hero in baseball. So, you mess up an otherwise very complimentary thread about Maddux with your broken record repetition ad nauseam about your unproven allegations of Maddux being a PED user.
As for baseball heros, well, if you check the definition, you'll see that there are a plethora of heros that went into WW11 in their prime. I'd certainly put Ted Williams in the category for what he sacrificed.
I'll not add more to this thread, you are the kind of person that must post over and over and over...you can't help it and again, the majority of us here "get it". Constantly insisting that a person is, or has done something illegal, for personal gain, and having zippo proof, speaks volumes of who you are.
You, sir, are the shortsighted one!!
"""You have no proof, only your obvious disdain for baseball players in general, as you have no hero in baseball."""
I was a fan of Al Kaline, Gates Brown and Mickey Lolich. They were my hero's at age 12. I outgrew that though.
Is Koufax your hero now? Mine was Ted Williams. I may outgrow that someday, but not yet.
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Ralph
Nah. I was looking for a decent avatar. All the coin ones look the same after a while.