OP (me) has egg on face...seems cost to strike etc just is higher than we thought.... so this little guy is more a novelty piece than a bullion item... still at $100 for a roll of 30 pieces.... sorry guys we are trying and appreciate all trying to support our efforts... Jon
If this round can be sold for a profit at just 30 cents when buying 1,000 at a time.....and including 50 coin tubes....and the metal is worth around 4 cents.....then the absolute maximum cost to strike the round could not possible be any higher than 20 cents per.
@Geckster109 said:
If this round can be sold for a profit at just 30 cents when buying 1,000 at a time.....and including 50 coin tubes....and the metal is worth around 4 cents.....then the absolute maximum cost to strike the round could not possible be any higher than 20 cents per.
@Geckster109 said:
If this round can be sold for a profit at just 30 cents when buying 1,000 at a time.....and including 50 coin tubes....and the metal is worth around 4 cents.....then the absolute maximum cost to strike the round could not possible be any higher than 20 cents per.
1/4 oz silver pieces would be a better option IMO. These 1/10 oz fish scales look nice but they're too small for much more than gifts or novelties. 1/4 oz pieces sized and designed off of Seated or Bust quarters could have lower premiums and greater market appeal.
Who knows though, my first cup of coffee's getting cold.
@Geckster109 said:
If this round can be sold for a profit at just 30 cents when buying 1,000 at a time.....and including 50 coin tubes....and the metal is worth around 4 cents.....then the absolute maximum cost to strike the round could not possible be any higher than 20 cents per.
Check his link. He's talking about "copper bullion coins" but the cost of production and handling would be comparable to similar sized coins made of silver. Of course "copper bullion coins" are neither bullion nor are they coins. The term bullion is reserved for precious metals and copper is NOT a precious metal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Facrissake, quit knocking the guy, already. Who gives a furry rat's behind what they cost to produce. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, then move on. They certainly weren't struck for people to invest in. What about 1ozt silver bars that say "Merry Christmas" with a picture of Santa Claus on them? People pay over $30 for those things, and in the end, it's still only 1ozt of silver. Jesus Christ, what a bunch of whiners.
Thank you for allowing me to rant. We now return you to our regularly scheduled craziness.
My link was meant to demonstrate that "striking" costs are not so high as to justify a $1.80 piece of silver needing to cost $3.33 wholesale in order to make a profit. I do not know where Scarsdale got their rounds minted, but if the costs to make those copper rounds are any indication as to production costs of their rounds, then $3.33 per round translates to about a 65% mark-up by Scarsdale. They really are neat, but with the company's website plastered over the thing, you would more likely expect these to be sold closer to cost as an advertising mechanism. I was all-in for $2 - $2.25 each. Im all out @ $3.33 each even when buying in bulk quantity.
@Outhaul said:
Facrissake, quit knocking the guy, already. Who gives a furry rat's behind what they cost to produce. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, then move on. They certainly weren't struck for people to invest in. What about 1ozt silver bars that say "Merry Christmas" with a picture of Santa Claus on them? People pay over $30 for those things, and in the end, it's still only 1ozt of silver. Jesus Christ, what a bunch of whiners.
Thank you for allowing me to rant. We now return you to our regularly scheduled craziness.
Cheers
Bob
First off let's please keep JC out of this.
Cost of production is odd to bring up but when you post on a message board you do open the door for comments/opinions.
My post wasn't knocking I was just surprised the price had gone up so much.
IMHO 1/10 is a little small, I prefer 1/4.
Scarsdale, I commend you for trying and hope the future is bright for you.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I like everything about them except the dot.com address. I'm sure it is important, but it takes away from old style delivered by the design of the coin .
I'm sure Jon will still sell them at shows and in his shop and even if they didn't sell, well it would be a nice little gift as a TOKEN gesture with any purchase over $50 as an example .
Good luck with it . Nice design overall .
Did D.C. Engrave and Mint these for you or someone else?
Those that want to tell the OP how to do his business ought to open their own business and see what all the costs really are and how it is all done....instead of just being a backseat driver, an armchair cowboy.
Always easier to tell others WHAT things should cost and HOW things should be done when you aren't the one fronting the money or spending the time/resources.
The main objection hasn't been the actual price, it was the trial balloon that prematurely got people's expectations up. Being a bullion-oriented forum, I'm sure that I wasn't the only one whose consciousness was raised with the possibility of tubes of 1/10th ozers as a potential holding at a competitive price for bullion.
For me, it was only a possible option, but not really a practical probability anyhow.
The problem is in the fixed costs of the project and in the incrementally higher unit costs for a low dollar item. Just as 1/10 oz gold has a higher per unit cost premium than a 1 ozer gold, so would a 1/10 oz silver have a higher per unit cost premium than a 1 ozer silver.
Unless you're the U.S. Mint making 90% silver dimes for circulation, you reach a breakeven point that is considerably higher for a small silver coin than for a small gold coin. Not many people have the inclination to sink tons of money into making a market that may not even materialize, such as low premium, small denomination silver.
At least Jon came back to offer an explanation. Otherwise, I was a little bit put off by the OP.
On the other hand, some states are already authorizing bullion as acceptable money for transactions. It seems a possibility that a private minter could be approved for making legal tender coins as long as they met specific criteria for weight, composition and dimension. Governments have all sorts of other private contractors, so why the heck not?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Even at straight melt, I shudder at the conversation I'd have to have with the random buyer if I had tubes of unknown 1/10s.
One or two as a curiosity, who cares the premium (within reason, a dollar or two never killed anybody) if it fits your collection, great, wonderful get one or three. As a larger stack of fractional silver, I'll stick with BU Roosevelts, thanks.
My basic contention is with the OP's excuse for the much higher than anticipated cost. He PM'd me and explained that it costs just as much to mint a 1oz round as it does a 1/10th oz round. Now, if the actual production costs are what caused such a dramatic price increase, then I have to wonder just exactly how much the OP figured those costs would be? His original price estimate was $2-$2.50/ round with a silver value of around $1.80. Therefore, he must have thought that production costs would be somewhere in the .20 to .70 range depending on how much profit he expected to make per unit. The truth is it should cost approx. that much to produce these as evidenced by 1/4 oz copper rounds being sold @ just .31 each all said, all done! There is no logical reason why it should cost MORE to mint 1/10th silver rounds than it does to mint 1/4 oz copper rounds as far as purely production costs. I would absolutely LOVE to know how a 1/4oz copper round could be sold (at a profit) for .31 each, but Jon somehow couldn't manage to sell the silver 1/10ths at melt + .31(production costs) + 20% mark-up for a total of about $2.50 each. I wonder if Jon would actually share with the group exactly how much it costs just in manufacturing costs to produce one of these based on lets say 10,000 units ordered.
@Geckster109 said:
My basic contention is with the OP's excuse for the much higher than anticipated cost. He PM'd me and explained that it costs just as much to mint a 1oz round as it does a 1/10th oz round. Now, if the actual production costs are what caused such a dramatic price increase, then I have to wonder just exactly how much the OP figured those costs would be? His original price estimate was $2-$2.50/ round with a silver value of around $1.80. Therefore, he must have thought that production costs would be somewhere in the .20 to .70 range depending on how much profit he expected to make per unit. The truth is it should cost approx. that much to produce these as evidenced by 1/4 oz copper rounds being sold @ just .31 each all said, all done! There is no logical reason why it should cost MORE to mint 1/10th silver rounds than it does to mint 1/4 oz copper rounds as far as purely production costs. I would absolutely LOVE to know how a 1/4oz copper round could be sold (at a profit) for .31 each, but Jon somehow couldn't manage to sell the silver 1/10ths at melt + .31(production costs) + 20% mark-up for a total of about $2.50 each. I wonder if Jon would actually share with the group exactly how much it costs just in manufacturing costs to produce one of these based on lets say 10,000 units ordered.
Geck, There is more to an initial price then just production costs. There are other factors like design cost, marketing, etc...
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@Geckster109 said:
My basic contention is with the OP's excuse for the much higher than anticipated cost. He PM'd me and explained that it costs just as much to mint a 1oz round as it does a 1/10th oz round. Now, if the actual production costs are what caused such a dramatic price increase, then I have to wonder just exactly how much the OP figured those costs would be? His original price estimate was $2-$2.50/ round with a silver value of around $1.80. Therefore, he must have thought that production costs would be somewhere in the .20 to .70 range depending on how much profit he expected to make per unit. The truth is it should cost approx. that much to produce these as evidenced by 1/4 oz copper rounds being sold @ just .31 each all said, all done! There is no logical reason why it should cost MORE to mint 1/10th silver rounds than it does to mint 1/4 oz copper rounds as far as purely production costs. I would absolutely LOVE to know how a 1/4oz copper round could be sold (at a profit) for .31 each, but Jon somehow couldn't manage to sell the silver 1/10ths at melt + .31(production costs) + 20% mark-up for a total of about $2.50 each. I wonder if Jon would actually share with the group exactly how much it costs just in manufacturing costs to produce one of these based on lets say 10,000 units ordered.
Geck, There is more to an initial price then just production costs. There are other factors like design cost, marketing, etc...
If it is possible to sell at a profit AND as a middle man, a 1/4 oz copper round for .31 delivered, then there should be no reason that production costs on a 1/10th silver round exceed that price. Not to mention the .31 includes a $1.50 coin tube with every 20 ordered, which means that the production costs are considerably lower than .31 per round!
$0.04 of copper for $0.31, vs. $1.80 of silver for $3.30. That's a big difference in inventory carrying costs.
Now consider the fixed costs - all of them. Machinery, rent, utilities, equipment maintenance. Then marketing costs. And labor costs. And finally, profit. Production cost isn't the main issue. Cranking them out isn't figured in isolation.
Everything depends on the volume. That's what breakeven analysis is all about.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@jmski52 said:
$0.04 of copper for $0.31, vs. $1.80 of silver for $3.30. That's a big difference in inventory carrying costs.
Now consider the fixed costs - all of them. Machinery, rent, utilities, equipment maintenance. Then marketing costs. And labor costs. And finally, profit. Production cost isn't the main issue. Cranking them out isn't figured in isolation.
Everything depends on the volume. That's what breakeven analysis is all about.
This is directly from the OP: "....seems cost to strike etc just is higher than we thought...."
So, the place they went to for the striking/etc, was higher than they thought. That's what was said in the PM to you that you reference.
Was it the exact same place that you are quoting for the copper? Hmmmm?
Different places have different costs, and volume, timing, etc, all have a play in it. Again, if you haven't been having this done, then I definitely take the OP's word and experience over yours.
@jmski52 said:
$0.04 of copper for $0.31, vs. $1.80 of silver for $3.30. That's a big difference in inventory carrying costs.
Now consider the fixed costs - all of them. Machinery, rent, utilities, equipment maintenance. Then marketing costs. And labor costs. And finally, profit. Production cost isn't the main issue. Cranking them out isn't figured in isolation.
Everything depends on the volume. That's what breakeven analysis is all about.
@jmski52 summed up many of the fixed costs affecting bottom line nicely. There are additional variable cost considerations but somehow I don't think facts will get in the way of @Geckster109 making more criticisms founded on a few baseless and meaningless assumptions.
Maybe should Gecko should start producing 1/10 silver rounds. Maybe a lizard with a fireman's hat and holding an axe on one side and America on fire on the other?
@cohodk said:
Maybe should Gecko should start producing 1/10 silver rounds. Maybe a lizard with a fireman's hat and holding an axe on one side and America on fire on the other?
An old concrete guy I worked with used the term"fireman's hat" in a novel way. I don't think there is much market for pornographic rounds these days .
Comments
OP (me) has egg on face...seems cost to strike etc just is higher than we thought.... so this little guy is more a novelty piece than a bullion item... still at $100 for a roll of 30 pieces.... sorry guys we are trying and appreciate all trying to support our efforts... Jon
If this round can be sold for a profit at just 30 cents when buying 1,000 at a time.....and including 50 coin tubes....and the metal is worth around 4 cents.....then the absolute maximum cost to strike the round could not possible be any higher than 20 cents per.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-NEW-Copper-Bullion-Coins-10-Different-Designs-to-Pick-From-1-4-oz-each-/162156803111
How is the metal worth only 4 cents?
At $18.00 silver 1/10 oz is $1.80.
1/4 oz silver pieces would be a better option IMO. These 1/10 oz fish scales look nice but they're too small for much more than gifts or novelties. 1/4 oz pieces sized and designed off of Seated or Bust quarters could have lower premiums and greater market appeal.
Who knows though, my first cup of coffee's getting cold.
Check his link. He's talking about "copper bullion coins" but the cost of production and handling would be comparable to similar sized coins made of silver. Of course "copper bullion coins" are neither bullion nor are they coins. The term bullion is reserved for precious metals and copper is NOT a precious metal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Facrissake, quit knocking the guy, already. Who gives a furry rat's behind what they cost to produce. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, then move on. They certainly weren't struck for people to invest in. What about 1ozt silver bars that say "Merry Christmas" with a picture of Santa Claus on them? People pay over $30 for those things, and in the end, it's still only 1ozt of silver. Jesus Christ, what a bunch of whiners.
Thank you for allowing me to rant. We now return you to our regularly scheduled craziness.
Cheers
Bob
Outhaul---You are certainly living up to your avatar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
My link was meant to demonstrate that "striking" costs are not so high as to justify a $1.80 piece of silver needing to cost $3.33 wholesale in order to make a profit. I do not know where Scarsdale got their rounds minted, but if the costs to make those copper rounds are any indication as to production costs of their rounds, then $3.33 per round translates to about a 65% mark-up by Scarsdale. They really are neat, but with the company's website plastered over the thing, you would more likely expect these to be sold closer to cost as an advertising mechanism. I was all-in for $2 - $2.25 each. Im all out @ $3.33 each even when buying in bulk quantity.
Most Verbally Eloquent post: Outhaul.
First off let's please keep JC out of this.
Cost of production is odd to bring up but when you post on a message board you do open the door for comments/opinions.
My post wasn't knocking I was just surprised the price had gone up so much.
IMHO 1/10 is a little small, I prefer 1/4.
Scarsdale, I commend you for trying and hope the future is bright for you.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I like everything about them except the dot.com address. I'm sure it is important, but it takes away from old style delivered by the design of the coin .
I'm sure Jon will still sell them at shows and in his shop and even if they didn't sell, well it would be a nice little gift as a TOKEN gesture with any purchase over $50 as an example .
Good luck with it . Nice design overall .
Did D.C. Engrave and Mint these for you or someone else?
Those that want to tell the OP how to do his business ought to open their own business and see what all the costs really are and how it is all done....instead of just being a backseat driver, an armchair cowboy.
Always easier to tell others WHAT things should cost and HOW things should be done when you aren't the one fronting the money or spending the time/resources.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Good point, Boichman. Jon answered my PM with an understandable response.
The main objection hasn't been the actual price, it was the trial balloon that prematurely got people's expectations up. Being a bullion-oriented forum, I'm sure that I wasn't the only one whose consciousness was raised with the possibility of tubes of 1/10th ozers as a potential holding at a competitive price for bullion.
For me, it was only a possible option, but not really a practical probability anyhow.
The problem is in the fixed costs of the project and in the incrementally higher unit costs for a low dollar item. Just as 1/10 oz gold has a higher per unit cost premium than a 1 ozer gold, so would a 1/10 oz silver have a higher per unit cost premium than a 1 ozer silver.
Unless you're the U.S. Mint making 90% silver dimes for circulation, you reach a breakeven point that is considerably higher for a small silver coin than for a small gold coin. Not many people have the inclination to sink tons of money into making a market that may not even materialize, such as low premium, small denomination silver.
At least Jon came back to offer an explanation. Otherwise, I was a little bit put off by the OP.
On the other hand, some states are already authorizing bullion as acceptable money for transactions. It seems a possibility that a private minter could be approved for making legal tender coins as long as they met specific criteria for weight, composition and dimension. Governments have all sorts of other private contractors, so why the heck not?
I knew it would happen.
Even at straight melt, I shudder at the conversation I'd have to have with the random buyer if I had tubes of unknown 1/10s.
One or two as a curiosity, who cares the premium (within reason, a dollar or two never killed anybody) if it fits your collection, great, wonderful get one or three. As a larger stack of fractional silver, I'll stick with BU Roosevelts, thanks.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
My basic contention is with the OP's excuse for the much higher than anticipated cost. He PM'd me and explained that it costs just as much to mint a 1oz round as it does a 1/10th oz round. Now, if the actual production costs are what caused such a dramatic price increase, then I have to wonder just exactly how much the OP figured those costs would be? His original price estimate was $2-$2.50/ round with a silver value of around $1.80. Therefore, he must have thought that production costs would be somewhere in the .20 to .70 range depending on how much profit he expected to make per unit. The truth is it should cost approx. that much to produce these as evidenced by 1/4 oz copper rounds being sold @ just .31 each all said, all done! There is no logical reason why it should cost MORE to mint 1/10th silver rounds than it does to mint 1/4 oz copper rounds as far as purely production costs. I would absolutely LOVE to know how a 1/4oz copper round could be sold (at a profit) for .31 each, but Jon somehow couldn't manage to sell the silver 1/10ths at melt + .31(production costs) + 20% mark-up for a total of about $2.50 each. I wonder if Jon would actually share with the group exactly how much it costs just in manufacturing costs to produce one of these based on lets say 10,000 units ordered.
Geck, There is more to an initial price then just production costs. There are other factors like design cost, marketing, etc...
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
If it is possible to sell at a profit AND as a middle man, a 1/4 oz copper round for .31 delivered, then there should be no reason that production costs on a 1/10th silver round exceed that price. Not to mention the .31 includes a $1.50 coin tube with every 20 ordered, which means that the production costs are considerably lower than .31 per round!
$0.04 of copper for $0.31, vs. $1.80 of silver for $3.30. That's a big difference in inventory carrying costs.
Now consider the fixed costs - all of them. Machinery, rent, utilities, equipment maintenance. Then marketing costs. And labor costs. And finally, profit. Production cost isn't the main issue. Cranking them out isn't figured in isolation.
Everything depends on the volume. That's what breakeven analysis is all about.
I knew it would happen.
This is directly from the OP: "....seems cost to strike etc just is higher than we thought...."
So, the place they went to for the striking/etc, was higher than they thought. That's what was said in the PM to you that you reference.
Was it the exact same place that you are quoting for the copper? Hmmmm?
Different places have different costs, and volume, timing, etc, all have a play in it. Again, if you haven't been having this done, then I definitely take the OP's word and experience over yours.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
@jmski52 summed up many of the fixed costs affecting bottom line nicely. There are additional variable cost considerations but somehow I don't think facts will get in the way of @Geckster109 making more criticisms founded on a few baseless and meaningless assumptions.
Maybe should Gecko should start producing 1/10 silver rounds. Maybe a lizard with a fireman's hat and holding an axe on one side and America on fire on the other?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
An old concrete guy I worked with used the term"fireman's hat" in a novel way. I don't think there is much market for pornographic rounds these days .