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Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

Has the B. Pogue auction gone off yet, the 6th or 7th one? If so how did they do?

Comments

  • KellenCoinKellenCoin Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭

    The 5th and final one will be starting soon.

    YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
    Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    stacks and sothebys will have the date and time

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    march 31

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    Kellen: The 5th and final one will be starting soon.

    The upcoming event in Baltimore on March 31st is the fifth and probably the last of the series. It is not clear that this is the last Pogue sale overall. I mention in my current article that there are coins in the Pogue Family Coin Collection that are not in this sale and have not yet been offered, including at least two that were planned to be included in this series of auctions. There are also two coins that did not sell in Pogue IV and are being retained by the Pogue family.

    My current article provides information regarding the evolution of the collection, including points that are not in any of the auction catalogues.

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 20: Overview of the 5th Sale

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 17: Importance of the 4th Sale to Collectors who Cannot Afford the Coins

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • jonrunsjonruns Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well written article!! Thanks!!

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2017 10:05PM

    After personally viewing many of Pouge's coins here is my take. Some of his coins are the best I've ever seen. Hands down. BUT....having said that....the most EXPENSIVE coins or the top pops are not necessarily the BEST coins. O.K., I said it. So shoot me.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I happen to agree with you. The quality for the grade was a mixed bag. I have chosen to pass on a coin that even CAC'd because I just can't get excited about it. The electricity is just missing....

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tradedollarnut, I'm honored that you agree with me. In fact this is a true highpoint in my lifelong numismatic journey. Thank you.

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    Hydrant: . Some of his coins are the best I've ever seen. Hands down. BUT....having said that....the most EXPENSIVE coins or the top pops are not necessarily the BEST coins. O.K., I said it. So shoot me.

    This point is certainly true. I find it odd that Hydrant would regard his statement as controversial or alarming. Has anyone declared or even suggested that the "most expensive coins or the top pops" are the best for everyone or are "necessarily" the finest known of their respective dates or types?

    In 2015, I pointed out that the PCGS graded MS-66, Rogers-Foxfire-Pogue 1797 half dollar sold for nearly twice as much as the PCGS graded MS-66, Rogers-Whitney-Pogue 1796 half dollar, despite roughly equivalent rarity and the fact that the Rogers-Whitney-Pogue coin is the finest known 1796 half.

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 1: Finest 1796 –97 Draped Bust Half Dollar

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 4: 18th Century Rarities Lead First Auction

    TDN: I happen to agree with [Hyrdrant]. The quality for the grade was a mixed bag. ...

    Yes, but not illuminating, this is true of every collection of certified coins that contains more than 250 coins and of almost all that contain less than 250 coins. The fact that many of the same classic U.S. coins have been sent to PCGS on multiple occasions contributes to the reality that a great coin may not be 'high end for its certified grade.'

    How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?

    TDN: I have chosen to pass on a coin that even CAC'd because I just can't get excited about it. The electricity is just missing....

    No one believes that every stickered coin will excite all collectors who are interested in coins of the same respective date and type. Furthermore, although JA is the Ted Williams of coin grading, Ted Williams struck out at times. Moreover, one of the things that is bothersome about price guides, averages relating to certification and markets, and the fascinating percentage estimates that Roadrunner develops, is that such data deflects attention from the fact that every coin is different, with its own individual characteristics. It is a good idea to discuss individual coins, though, on this forum, it might be best to wait until the Pogue V sale is over.

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Analyst, first of all I thank you for giving my previous post considerstion. Also, I very much enjoy and, I'll even go so far as to say admire your contributions to this board and the other publications which you write for. I'm afraid my post was not clearly articulated. Even so far as to come off as sort of tounge-in-cheek. I didn't mean it that way. Let me try to clarify my thoughts. First of all I have nothing but respect for Mr. Pouge's accomplishment. It's the stuff dreams are made of. Only a very intelligent and determined person could do what he did. The issues that I have with his collection lie squarely with me. To put it plainly, I don't think, in fact I know, that I don't have the knowledge, expertise, and the "eye," to fully appreciate what I was looking at. Example; A very highly respected dealer made a comment about an early silver dollar that was featured in the collection. His opinion was, and I paraphrase, "It was the most magnificent coin he had ever handled." Or something to that effect. I was very excited to see that piece. When I did view it, there was a letdown. I couldn't see it the way an expert did. As hard as I tried it just wasn't there for me. As I stated, some of the coins were the best I'd ever seen. To my eye. There was a 1912-S Liberty nickel (I think it was) that I can't get out of my mind to this day. It was so beautiful that it seemed to have an essence of it's own, it seemed to be actually radiating light and to be actually floating. Most beautiful coin I have ever seen. But then again, anybody could see that coin was special. So to sum it all up, what I was trying to say is that for me, just an average Joe without the background to appreciate it all, I was expecting more. Thanks again for consideration of my previous post.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1795$1 that I purchased after the Pogue sale is a magnificent gem - stunning - amazing really. If the majority of the collection were that quality, the buzz would be palpable across the entire community....

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Over a lot of years, I have examined closely many condition census pieces of early U.S. coins. For many of them, I had seen others of similar quality, and on that basis could grade them out as thus and so. Then there are those that truly stand out. So, for example, when I was doing lot viewing of the Naftzger Large Cents, I could see this was MS64, that was MS65, another was MS66, and then there were the mind blowing ones that defied belief, and I just labeled those as "MS-WOW!"

    TDN, the 1795$1 you replaced was certainly very nice and holds its own among early dollars, but the one you replaced it with??? That one is "MS-WOW!"

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I checked the early dollar pops at CAC before and after. Extrapolating, I'd guess a third of the collection ....if that.

    That is not to say the other two thirds was overgraded - just that CAC quality for the grade wasn't a consideration when putting the collection together (or having it graded for sale).

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coincommando said:
    if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    Not so fast there!

    As Analyst pointed out, JA sometimes does make mistakes like any other human. When the Cardinal Collection of Large Cents was auctioned in January 2013, the Sheldon 67 cent graded by PCGS as MS67RB did NOT sticker. When JA was asked about it, he said he was bothered by the "ticks" on the face of Liberty. The sad part was, the "ticks" were raised on the coin, as there were defects in the die, which caused that variety to be nicknamed "Liberty with tears." Turned out that JA had never owned a book about large cent varieties and just graded them as if they were ALL the same!

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2017 8:31AM

    @coincommando said:
    while still magnificent, this is a world class collection that is also the poster child of gradeflation if there ever was. too bad we will never know what % CAC'd. its a tragedy this had to happen. it has turned off many people in the know. only the people who need to fill holes are forced to buy much of the over graded coins. prior pogue sales have proven this with cheap results.

    there is always a strong market for the very finest coins. if so, pogue would have across the board price records. it has scattered price records. the biggest sham of all: the 1804 PR68 sale scam and the fact the coin turned-ask any expert who saw it

    if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    Let me know if I got your message right: The Pogue collection was overgraded. The coin in-crowd was upset that the collection was not beaned, so they let the less informed fill up the holes in their collection with overgraded and problem (5 and 6 figure) coins, mostly on the cheap.

    That about right?

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Analyst said:

    Yes, but not illuminating, this is true of every collection of certified coins that contains more than 250 coins and of almost all that contain less than 250 coins. The fact that many of the same classic U.S. coins have been sent to PCGS on multiple occasions contributes to the reality that a great coin may not be 'high end for its certified grade.'

    This is numismatic heresy. Many collectors won't even look at a coin without a sticker anymore. I wonder what the prices realized would have looked like if the coins had already been stickered.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:

    @coincommando said:
    if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    Not so fast there!

    As Analyst pointed out, JA sometimes does make mistakes like any other human. When the Cardinal Collection of Large Cents was auctioned in January 2013, the Sheldon 67 cent graded by PCGS as MS67RB did NOT sticker. When JA was asked about it, he said he was bothered by the "ticks" on the face of Liberty. The sad part was, the "ticks" were raised on the coin, as there were defects in the die, which caused that variety to be nicknamed "Liberty with tears." Turned out that JA had never owned a book about large cent varieties and just graded them as if they were ALL the same!

    I'm am being 100% genuine in my post, and not sarcastic. I find this absolutely terrifying. Everyone makes mistakes, but it is terrifying that mistakes of this nature are out there when one person's opinion matters so much more than everything else (including that of the TPG graders).

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ronyahski said:

    @coincommando said:
    while still magnificent, this is a world class collection that is also the poster child of gradeflation if there ever was. too bad we will never know what % CAC'd. its a tragedy this had to happen. it has turned off many people in the know. only the people who need to fill holes are forced to buy much of the over graded coins. prior pogue sales have proven this with cheap results.

    there is always a strong market for the very finest coins. if so, pogue would have across the board price records. it has scattered price records. the biggest sham of all: the 1804 PR68 sale scam and the fact the coin turned-ask any expert who saw it

    if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    Let me know if I got your message right: The Pogue collection was overgraded. The coin in-crowd was upset that the collection was not beaned, so they let the less informed fill up the holes in their collection with overgraded and problem (5 and 6 figure) coins, mostly on the cheap.

    That about right?

    The so called coin in-crowd is upset that some of the crap selling cheap knocked a leg out from under the market. I can no longer buy an upgrade to my set without serious consideration of how much I will lose on the coin it replaces and how long it will take to sell.

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @Ronyahski said:

    @coincommando said:
    while still magnificent, this is a world class collection that is also the poster child of gradeflation if there ever was. too bad we will never know what % CAC'd. its a tragedy this had to happen. it has turned off many people in the know. only the people who need to fill holes are forced to buy much of the over graded coins. prior pogue sales have proven this with cheap results.

    there is always a strong market for the very finest coins. if so, pogue would have across the board price records. it has scattered price records. the biggest sham of all: the 1804 PR68 sale scam and the fact the coin turned-ask any expert who saw it

    >

    Let me know if I got your message right: The Pogue collection was overgraded. The coin in-crowd was upset that the collection was not beaned, so they let the less informed fill up the holes in their collection with overgraded and problem (5 and 6 figure) coins, mostly on the cheap.

    That about right?

    The so called coin in-crowd is upset that some of the crap selling cheap knocked a leg out from under the market. I can no longer buy an upgrade to my set without serious consideration of how much I will lose on the coin it replaces and how long it will take to sell.

    I'm the slow one today, as I'm not getting it. So if some of the crap in your collection sells for cheap, you blame it on some of the crap in the Pogue collection selling cheap? If Pogue had some crap coins and they sold cheap, isn't that what should happen? (Crap coins sold cheap I assume for the most part means overgraded.) And I'm pretty sure that you're not worried you have a lot of crap in your collection, thus my query.

    My point with the prior post is: nobody was forced to buy Pogue coins; some Pogue coins were magnificent and went for strong money; some Pogue coins were overgraded/not so magnificent and went for less money; it all seemed to work out fine with no beans on the coins (the so-called in crowd knew or could've known what was beaned and what was not beaned anyway).

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "I can no longer buy an upgrade to my set without serious consideration of how much I will lose on the coin it replaces and how long it will take to sell."

    This is an interesting point that many collectors will need to consider.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2017 9:31AM

    Bad coins selling for cheap prices disrupts the market for good coins. And choosing to remove the stickers from the third that were indeed quality for the grade coins to obfuscate which weren't quality disrupted the market even more.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2017 10:10AM

    The Pittman and Eliasberg sales sold just fine in 1995-1998 being raw and unbeaned. The coins sold for what they were, and in many cases, maybe more than what they were. Vermeulle and Queller in 2002-2003 were about the last of that raw breed. Dealers and collectors had no problem then buying with their own eyes to estimate grades. The slabs and stickers do provide invaluable help to those that can't grade or value a coin on their own, never mind identifying altered and doctored coins. No one gets it right more than 85-90% of the time. And that type of accuracy is very hard to find as it is.

    I don't think there's any doubt that CAC has "disrupted" or at least "altered" the market place since 2008. You can spin it positive or negative or both. The effects are undeniable, significant, and lasting. Even if they left tomorrow, everyone would be wondering if that coin "could have stickered."

    Ronyahski, don't stir up CC. They're a long time PNG dealer which means they are beyond reproach. Though it does seem they are simply over the top when it comes to CAC. In particular, that CAC has saved the collector more money in mistakes than the TPGs have over their 30 yrs. That coming from someone claiming 45+ years as a dealer.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The internet wasn't such a power for Pittman and Eliasberg. These days, prices realized are available at a click of a button. What is not available is quality for the grade. Sure, you can get a nuance: NGC (didn't cross), Pcgs (didn't sticker) or CAC

    Having incomplete information but thinking you have it all totally messes up the market

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coincommando said:
    if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    There are a lot of perfectly wholesome coins that are low end for the grade, and should therefore not qualify for a green bean. Perhaps one day CAC will introduce a bean of a new color for such coins.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The black bean: tastes good but leaves a slight odor....

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Bad coins selling for cheap prices disrupts the market for good coins. And choosing to remove the stickers from the third that were indeed quality for the grade coins to obfuscate which weren't quality disrupted the market even more.

    From a business marketing strategy did this decision ultimately end up increasing the totals realized or is there even any way to really know? Assuming that more money was realized by going no bean one wonders if this model will be repeated in future sales of large collections?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @Ronyahski said:

    @coincommando said:
    while still magnificent, this is a world class collection that is also the poster child of gradeflation if there ever was. too bad we will never know what % CAC'd. its a tragedy this had to happen. it has turned off many people in the know. only the people who need to fill holes are forced to buy much of the over graded coins. prior pogue sales have proven this with cheap results.

    there is always a strong market for the very finest coins. if so, pogue would have across the board price records. it has scattered price records. the biggest sham of all: the 1804 PR68 sale scam and the fact the coin turned-ask any expert who saw it

    if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    Let me know if I got your message right: The Pogue collection was overgraded. The coin in-crowd was upset that the collection was not beaned, so they let the less informed fill up the holes in their collection with overgraded and problem (5 and 6 figure) coins, mostly on the cheap.

    That about right?

    The so called coin in-crowd is upset that some of the crap selling cheap knocked a leg out from under the market. I can no longer buy an upgrade to my set without serious consideration of how much I will lose on the coin it replaces and how long it will take to sell.

    Why not keep both coins?

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm a collector, not a hoarder

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2017 4:51PM

    CameoNut: Many collectors won't even look at a coin without a sticker anymore.

    CoinCommando: While still magnificent, this is a world class collection that is also the poster child of gradeflation if there ever was.

    I am more concerned about coins that are doctored than those that are "overgraded." In many of my auction reviews, I have drawn attention to coins that are certified as MS-X yet brought a price realized on par with a MS-(X-1) grade. As long as bidders are being advised by people who know how to grade coins, there is some logic to paying a MS-65 level price for a coin that is certified as MS-66. If we think of the grading criteria that were in effect from 1989 to 1997 as "the standard," as many of us subconsciously do, bids now can be adjusted. Doctored coins are a whole different matter.

    The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins

    TDN: I checked the early dollar pops at CAC before and after. Extrapolating, I'd guess a third of the collection ....if that. ...

    CoinCommando: ... too bad we will never know what % CAC'd.

    TDN's remarks are unfair. The sticker rate for Draped Bust dollars in the Pogue Collection was much lower than the sticker rate was for coins of most other types. The sticker rates for Capped Bust dimes and Capped Bust quarters were certainly much higher. A large majority of half dimes, of multiple design types, stickered, too. For coins in Pogue I (05/15), the sticker rate was between 65% and 70% IIRC. I will check my notes.

    Also, except for three coins, all the coins in these five Pogue sales were sent to CAC, as far as I know. Two of those three would not sticker, in my estimation. At best, the third would have a 50-50 chance of stickering. So, we can determine an almost exact sticker-rate for Pogue coins in all five sales.

    CameoNut: I'm am being 100% genuine in my post, and not sarcastic. I find this absolutely terrifying. Everyone makes mistakes, but it is terrifying ... when one person's opinion matters so much more than everything else ....

    Although I am a strong supporter of CAC and I find JA to be one of the most honest and ethical people in the coin business, I agree with CameoNut to an extent. I cannot agree with the CAC-only crowd.

    While I keep calling JA the TW of the coin community, Ted Williams never bat 1.000. No one can. It is really important to talk about the positive and negative characteristics of individual coins.

    CoinCommando: if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    It is unfortunate that CoinCommando ignored Cardinal's post above and all other arguments to the contrary. In regard to Cardinal's post, mint-caused imperfections rarely lower my grade of a coin. I know one respected dealer in early U.S. coins who avoids inventorying coins with noticeable adjustment marks, regardless of certifications. I really disagree with his approach. Mint-caused imperfections are part of the personality of the coin; later-modifications are harmful.

    It is also true that CAC is not quite as consistent as CoinCommando implies. No large-volume grading service can be.

    While striking-out and hitting fly balls are factors, there are also differences in philosophy. There are many 19th century coins with CAC stickers that I find to have been blatantly dipped, with a very white and unnatural appearance, in my view. There are also deeply toned coins, especially Liberty Seated coins, that I find to be superb that JA would not sticker at even the MS-64 level because he thinks they are "too dark." While telemarketing firms may promote bright-white coins, most (not all) sophisticated collectors of Liberty Seated coins prefer medium to deep, natural toning.

    Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2017 10:38PM

    Afford, Honus Wagner had the biggest nose in the game. Tradedollarnut has the best eye in the game. Does that answer your question?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @coincommando said:
    if cac does not bean a coin there is some kind of problem period. why would they not?

    There are a lot of perfectly wholesome coins that are low end for the grade, and should therefore not qualify for a green bean. Perhaps one day CAC will introduce a bean of a new color for such coins.

    I have thought about this too... Maybe a silver bean.

  • Well at least the 'other' 1804 dollar has a chance of selling this time around. Guesstimates anyone? I'll fathom a guess at 3.5 to 4 mill +juice. Lesson learned from the first offering

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    CoinCommando: I did not ignore cardinals post-just your slim ball attempts at selling your BS here on what you think you know.

    This is a malicious remark, Moreover, it does not address the points put forth by Cardinal, CameoNut or myself. Besides, I honestly thought that my reasoning was sound and I emphasized that there are philosophical disagreements. It is indisputable that there are many obviously and blatantly dipped, 19th century coins in holders with CAC stickers. There are also quite a few, deeply toned Liberty Seated coins, including some with a Kaufman pedigree, that have failed to receive CAC stickers. I find many (not all) of those to be "solid" for their respective certified grades. These are points that are well worth discussing in a rational manner.

    CoinCommando: hey RR, how much you going to spend in Pogue? if you spend over $100G on non cac coins-the ones really non cac I will bow down and listen to your misinformation with out a peep.

    Does this remark imply that CoinCommando thinks that the people who spend the most money have rights to express opinions that others do not have? Hansen seems to be spending more than any other collector? The Contursi firm (RCW) may spend far more than most dealers. Is Coin Commando saying that he or she will "bow down" and "listen" to their respective opinions?

    Although I disagree with some of Roadrunner's views, he is very knowledgeable, does put forth a few brilliant points, and has the right to express his opinions. I am unaware of "misinformation"!

    TDN: I happen to agree with you. The quality for the grade was a mixed bag. I have chosen to pass on a coin that even CAC'd because I just can't get excited about it. The electricity is just missing ...

    CoinCommando: tdn said it perfect, the electricity is gone from pogue.

    TDN's remarks in this regard were certainly ambiguous, hardly "perfect"! I interpreted his statement, quoted above, that he did not find a particular CAC approved bust dollar to be exciting. Alternately, he could have been saying that the "electricity is missing" from the group of bust dollars that will be offered on March 31st in Pogue V. These bust dollars, however, constitute only a small percentage of the lots in this sale. There are many excellent half cents and large cents in Pogue V. Some (not all) Liberty Seated coins are very impressive, too.

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 20: Overview of the 5th Sale

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 17: Importance of the 4th Sale to Collectors who Cannot Afford the Coins

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Analyst, thanks for the kind comments above. I do try to push the envelope and make people think outside their box. I don't do it for any reason other than to state what I think current market realities are and to put those in a way that others might understand why I see it that way. Some might agree....others won't.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2017 7:58PM

    CC, I'd be more than happy to discuss top/bad dealers, top/bad graders, Pogue, Norweb, Gardner, Blay, CAC, whales, doctors, and numerous other topics...in person, should that ever occur. I have plenty more to say. I gave you my next show date. Simply show up and we can see who knows which end is up. The irony of your references is that I learned from many of those same guys, at the same time they were coming up. You can't have it both ways.

    I look at what you and the current "wedding crashers" keep putting out (no offense meant CCNcoin) and just shake my head in disbelief. The reality you fail to understand is that it's still the same old coin market....there really is nothing new under the sun, just different ways to express the same things. 1976, 1986, 1996, 2006, 2016...nothing really different. There was Garrett, Benton Emory, Norweb, James Stack back then. Today it's Pogue, Newman, Gardner, Simpson, and "H."

    "We" had a 7-8 mint state point grading system back in 1976....long before ALL the actual numbers of 60-69 all showed up. And if you were bidding for superb gem type in the 1975-1985 era, you'd know that. Wonder how Pittman, Eliasberg and Stack would have thought of that? Nothing at all wrong with stirring stuff up....we all doit...as long as it makes reasonable sense or somewhat mirrors historical truths. That's where you're falling short. Fwiw, some of the worst dealers I've ever known, are ones from the 1960's and early 70's, and a number of them PNG members too. Sorry for the truth. Some could really grade...many or probably most couldn't. That doesn't mean they couldn't "deal" and make a fortune. We can discuss further in person.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2017 7:50PM

    If you can't stand what I say here, then we wouldn't get along in person at all. I'd say the exact same stuff I post here in person....only with more details and supporting data. I can only type 20-30 wpm. I speak a lot faster.

    We might agree on some aspects of PNG. It would only be worse if there were no PNG. They actually helped me recover from a PNG dealer who messed up an auction consignment they were handling for me. That's better consumer protection than I have ever received in the coin business before or since.

    A "lot more" than half the dealers cannot grade to upper technical levels. And by that I mean just a hair or shade under TPG quality. Maybe they'd be 60-70% accurate vs the TPG at 65-75%. I'd put it at 90% or more when considered all 10,000 or more dealers in the nation, B&M's included. In my state, I'm only aware of a couple of dealers who grade MS/PF choice/gem type at the upper levels. I'm not even aware of a B&M in my state that can technically grade to a top standard. Been that way for decades. And they didn't have to when you buy for X and charge your customer X+30%. That's why they mostly submit their coins first these days.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    CoinCommando: the only reason you guys can stand out is the real dealers and buyers of today-save for tdn (the ultimate junkie) don't come here. they sit back and laugh at what is said.

    Not only is this a nasty remark directed at Roadrunner and myself, it is insulting to the many members of this forum who do frequently read threads and take the discussions here seriously. I was never under the impression that a majority of dealers and collectors are members of this forum, though there are more players here than CoinCommando realizes. In any event, I am not here to impress players. I enjoy participating in this forum and I find this forum to be a great educational environment, except for threads where people are more interested in making insulting or malicious remarks than in productive discussions.

    CoinCommando: your not helping people like your ego thinks-ditto analyst

    For more than two decades, I have been the leader in reporting news regarding rare, classic U.S. coins, and in analyzing coins, collections and auctions. Please consider more than 370 articles on CoinWeek.com, more than fifty articles that were published on CoinLink and hundreds of articles in Numismatic News newspaper and other Krause publications. Additionally, as has been stated on the CoinWeek site for years, I am involved in private consulting and other research projects. I have certainly tried very hard to be of service to coin collectors.

    My series of articles on the Pogue Family Coin Collection recently won an award from the NLG.

    Pogue Family Coin Collection Part 18 – Half Dollars and Bust Dollars Fare Well in 4th Auction

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 1: Finest 1796 –97 Draped Bust Half Dollar

    The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 16 – Capped Bust Dimes

    Roadrunner: I do try to push the envelope and make people think outside their box. I don't do it for any reason other than to state what I think current market realities are and to put those in a way that others might understand why I see it that way. Some might agree....others won't.

    Yes, Roadrunner has done so brilliantly. I have frequently encouraged "people to think outside their" respective 'boxes.' It is a shame that some of the fascinating and educational discussions that Roadrunner has stimulated have been interrupted by nasty or insulting remarks by CoinCommando, ElmiraCoin, or Caddyshack, who may be determined to put down others and not contribute to knowledge or education.

    I enjoy being involved in this forum. Hopefully, no one is seeking to poison it.

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some excellent points raised here. I just not had my early morning coffee yet to intelligently list them.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PollywogRancher said:
    Well at least the 'other' 1804 dollar has a chance of selling this time around. Guesstimates anyone? I'll fathom a guess at 3.5 to 4 mill +juice. Lesson learned from the first offering

    You bidding again?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2017 1:24PM

    @coincommando said:
    Love that statement: even if cac went away people would still want to know what beaned. that shows what a powerful impact cac has had. you can't blame cac for crashing the bad coins. maybe the grading services never should have been so loose? one way or another a crash would have come-cac saved it from being the entire market

    This remains to be seen. It could absolutely be the case that Mr. Albanese's opinion is so well respected that CAC's influence will continue to play a role in the market if CAC closes; however, if it is true that John Albanese was the finalizer during the early days of NGC, wouldn't the old no line fatty NGC holders have a similar following? While there is some following, it isn't that great in my opinion (not anywhere near the CAC level). It may very well be that CAC's influence is because it has historically made fair offers for the coins it beans. If CAC ever ceases operations, the market may literally follow the money. More than likely, people would focus on the quality of the coins. While there is a strong correlation between CAC and high quality coins, the correlation isn't perfect. I have seen too many bust coins with stickers that have deep scratches that are supposedly toned over, but to my eyes, the coins look like eye sores. Ditto for the grading intervals that CAC ignores (for instance, it treats AU50 and AU53 as the same grade - how many of those AU53s with a bean are really PQ AU50s? When you slice the salami that thinly, ever little difference matters).

  • @tradedollarnut said:

    @PollywogRancher said:
    Well at least the 'other' 1804 dollar has a chance of selling this time around. Guesstimates anyone? I'll fathom a guess at 3.5 to 4 mill +juice. Lesson learned from the first offering

    You bidding again?

    Bruce

    I'm not sure. I've always wanted one as you well know but it really doesn't fit into my overall collection, and the more I think about it, it is a lot of money that would be essentially 'dead' money, money that I could easily spend in other areas. On the other hand, the coin is a centerpiece, the Rolls Royce of US coinage. Plenty of arguments on that score, I'm sure, but how many other coins had matchbook covers in the 1960's available everywhere offering five thousand dollars cash! for each one? I've a few weeks to decide, and see if there's enough loose change behind the couch cushions, who knows and I would let you look at it from time to time, promise!

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2017 9:29PM

    Deleted

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2017 9:36PM

    @northcoin said:

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Bad coins selling for cheap prices disrupts the market for good coins. And choosing to remove the stickers from the third that were indeed quality for the grade coins to obfuscate which weren't quality disrupted the market even more.

    From a business marketing strategy did this decision ultimately end up increasing the totals realized or is there even any way to really know? Assuming that more money was realized by going no bean one wonders if this model will be repeated in future sales of large collections?

    Any educated guesses as to how much, if any, money was paid in total for the coins sold, over what would have been netted, because the beans were removed?

  • privaterarecoincollectorprivaterarecoincollector Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PollywogRancher said:
    Well at least the 'other' 1804 dollar has a chance of selling this time around. Guesstimates anyone? I'll fathom a guess at 3.5 to 4 mill +juice. Lesson learned from the first offering

    From what I hear the 1804 Dollar will sell for sure, as there is no reserve like last time. Just a starting bid of 2 Mio hammer, that shouldnt be a problem.

    The coin should bring between 3 to 5 Mio USD all together, depending on who is bidding. (I am not bidding).

    Certain dealers could be in until 3.5 to 4 Mio USD all together (in case they have money), so 3 to 4 Mio is a wholesale price and 4 to 5 Mio is a retail price.

    But really anything can happen, almost all half eagles of the last Pogue sale sold to dealers and they all went below whole sale price estimates I had.

    But if I would have to make a bet now on for how much it sells, my bet is 4.5 Mio USD all together.

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