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Crossovers and Serial Numbers
stanforddude
Posts: 78 ✭✭✭
If you submit a SGC graded card to PSA as a crossover submission and it's rejected, does PSA record the SGC serial number? If so, you'd figure that any future attempts at a crossover would be rejected because PSA could simply reference the serial number and see the rejection history.
Has anyone submitted a card for crossover, failed, then subsequently had a successful crossover on a future attempt in the same holder?
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Oh goodness, here we go....
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
You don't think this is a reasonable question?
Seems reasonable to me. Would be curious to know the answer.
No incentive for a company to log that data.
I would think there would be financial incentive. Take the money for the review but expend zero time from a grader to have to look at it. Would take a mere seconds for the person logging the order to lookup the SGC serial number.
So if I've got say a SGC 84 and send it for cross with min grade 7, and whether reality, opinion, bias, day of the week, whatever...that first grader doesn't agree that it's a 7 and sends it back min grade.
Are you suggesting that if I decided to try to cross on a different sub, they should simply take the money, enter the cert, and agree with first grader? Cuz that would suck.
I'm 2/3 on crosses but still usually crack cuz it's often more affordable, and any potential bias is removed. The one that didn't cross, was later cracked and hit desired grade. It is subjective.
Not saying they should. The OP was asking if they do. Hoping someone on here knows the answer.
I have wondered the same thing regarding a PSA review. Does the reviewer know if it has been reviewed before? They obviously have the info. of the cert. # so it would not be out of the question.
I wonder this too.
I also wondered if they do the same for newer cards that are numbered? So say here comes a Sidney Crosby rookie 150/199 for the 3rd time. It was cracked and resubbed twice both previous were 9s but the owner is hunting for the 10. It would save time if they did it, lower their costs, and as long as it got at least 2 pairs of eyes on it would be a way to instill confidence in their ability to be consistent on something that often times doesn't appear that way.
Kevin
Kevin
Coming from a data heavy company -- I don't think having 2 or 3 columns additional in their sql database would be a lot of data really. It just comes down to a matter if PSA deems that information relevant to support their product and employees with and also if they plan to report on any information stored later when it comes to sourcing or tracking certain criteria.
Sorry, it's a very reasonable question.
but yes, say you have a vintage SGC 50 and want to cross to a PSA 7. I would crack it out before sending. I would think PSA seeing a competitors slab would not be a good thing
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
NB4
Personally, I've only crossed one card over in the holder and it was successful. I think most try to cross in the holder once on high dollar cards, and if unsuccessful either crack and resubmit or sell in the old holder. It's not an impossible thought that they might record the serial #s, but I doubt they actually do.
Thanks guys. I tend to agree - the strategy would be to attempt the crossover, and if it fails, crack and submit raw. However, if you're dealing with a valuable high grade SGC card, cracking can get very risky.
I'm just wondering if crossover attempts are a one-and-done type deal. PSA does ask for the serial number on crossover submissions, so it makes sense to me that they'd log the number, then use it as a reference in case that very same holdered card gets submitted in the future.
Interesting theory/view.
I recommend emailing joe orlando to ask the question
Thanks HighGradeLegends. I emailed Joe and he replied right away saying that there would be "no automatic rejection" on cards that were preciously attempted at crossover in the same holder.
Still curious if anyone's had success on a repeat crossover attempt in the same holder.
Thanks Stanforddude for the information.
Glad you got your questioned answered. In the past i have asked direct questions to him and he always responded quickly and in an informative manner
A great question posed by stanforddude and a lot of good points on both sides. For additional safety and tracking purposes, it only makes sense that PSA would request the slabbed serial number. And since they then are electronically tracking this information, it's absolutely possible that the grader(s) would have access to this information upon a second, third, or whatever attempt to cross the card. That said, since you're paying new money for a review, you'd hope that the grader would give you a new and fair examination of the card.
While it's comforting to know that the official answer is "no automatic rejection," there are only two ways to really find the answer. Either wait until a former grader pens the highly-anticipated "Confessions of a PSA Grader"........or if someone can affirmatively answer the original question, i.e., has anyone actually crossed a card on a second, third, or whatever attempt?
who says the sgc cert number has to be correct on the sub, its not like it's a bump review. so perhaps just mis-transcribe if youre overly worried. "oops".
" Still curious if anyone's had success on a repeat crossover attempt in the same holder."
yes.
and the same conversational question could be applied to bumps as well and would definitely be much easier considering the cards/certs are already in their system.
and yes. applied to the same question on taking multiple attempts to actually get the bump. i usually go for 3 attempts.
as for the original question, i certainly would hope of no logging/auto rejection would occur.
after all, we are paying for a "review" by a card grader, not by data entry personnel who probably know nothing about cards.
yes.
but each card assessed differently.
depends on the card itself, service level, time of year, etc
eta:
also depends on which method im using to achieve the bump.
i assume we are talking on an individual, one card example submission and if so, then normally a crackout would ensue.
you had me at toledo.
Kevin
especially that night in Toledo. I can tell you stories that you wouldn't believe. Dan knows what I'm talking about.
PSA 8.5
Chaz
I have never ever had any success crossing over SGC, BGS, BCCG, WTF, ISA, etc to anything in a PSA holder, regardless of 1st or 4th try, so I retired from that game.
Yes, PSA does track the S/N's of the cards submitted for Crossover.. Why else would they have you fill in the S/N on the Submission form? They take their copy and officially have it on record. If it doesn't work the first time, just crack it if you want it in a PSA holder and similar grade, because it won't happen otherwise...
TheClockworkAngelCollection
Highly unlikely
Why would PSA want to help SGC's POP Report? And vice versa, knowing that they both would love for the other to fail.
No chance. Why would PSA have any interest or concern about the SGC pop report? Nor should they.
The pop report in general is highly inflated for many grades in the first place as collectors continue to crack and submit cards to PSA that were previously graded by PSA. Frankly, I dont think the vast majority of PSA collectors would even care what the corresponding SGC pop report is for the PSA graded cards they collect, nor would I expect it to have any effect on value for that matter, either.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It wouldn't surprise me if there's a gentleman's agreement between the major TPGs, but there's also no way it's instant. Maybe they send a batch of labels from crossovers each month.
There's no way to keep up, period, unless everyone returns their labels on crackouts. All pop reports are inflated and everyone should just assume that.
Simple, short answer is money. When you have the kind of insane price increases in value between grades that we witness in today's market, many collectors are going to try and capitalize on that. It's a hobby but a well funded one and people are going to try and maximize those opportunities.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think everybody would love to know the "real" pop reports on their favorite cards, but you cannot do anything other than accept that the pop reports are inflated with slabs that no longer exist, and the reports will continue to inflate over time.
That said, I don't think it truly matters that much when it comes to value. I mean, who knows how many 1980 Topps Henderson rookies (or choose your favorite card) were printed in the first place? Who knows how many are still raw (either still in unopened boxes or, more so, buried in collections all across the land) and have never been graded? In that light, how much does knowing the "real" pop report at any moment in time really matter? As always, supply and demand will ultimately prevail. Even if something is a Pop 1, it's still possible that 3 more could be unearthed the next month. To better determine value, it's far more important to follow the trends for a particular card. How available are they generally for sale? In what grades? Are they selling for stronger or weaker prices? Once you've got a good feel for that, you'll feel way more confident in value than by worrying about the pop reports.....which is something no one can control, anyways.
Lastly, people will crack and review cards as long as card grading exists. Card grading is subjective by nature, and it's done by humans, who are prone to error. I think everyone instinctively knows this, and I notice it myself when I'm looking at some of my own graded cards. For cards which I feel look too good for the grade, some days I'm convinced that they are under graded, and I should either crack or review them. On other days, the cards still look nice, but I can seemingly justify that maybe they are accurately graded. Now, if this card only went through grading once, it could come out either way. So, for cards that appear (even on some days!) to be high-end for the grade, it's likely that current and future owners of the card will continue to have it graded/reviewed until it gets the higher grade.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think "shady and indecent" is a bit extreme of a categorization to describe those who crack and resub. JMO.
In addition, I don't believe increased pop numbers have had any detrimental impact on key cards and HOFers. Just look at the rocketing prices for key cards over the past few years, despite the fact that many additional cards have been graded.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
which is that TPGs have a formal Review service meant to accomplish just that, without self-cracking.
I think many collectors believe a bump is tougher upon review vs crack out, even though it is the exact same card. That may or may not be true, but if the perception is that one has a better chance at achieving a higher grade using one level of service over another, obviously that is the option one is going to select. Both options are perfectly viable, imo, and not unethical by any means.
Frankly, I don't put much stock in pop reports to begin with~unless you are holding low pop commons, which by definition are going to be volatile, and somewhat of a manufactured rarity to begin with, the value of cards goes beyond the pop reports, as the rising values of key rookie cards like Schmidt, Brett, Yount, Murray, Smith , Henderson, et all, have clearly shown us over the past couple of years, despite many more examples of each grade being holdered.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If it provides you any solace, PSA will adjust the pop reports if one were to send them the flips from crackouts. Although I'd guess that the people that actually do that are in the vast minority. That being said, your point still stands that the pop report is skewed beyond repair.
per your crackout and "shady, indecent" and " money" comments:
so, yes. it is completely about the money. by not having to spend it and stretching your disposable income for more cardboard*
the glass is half full, my man.
and naturally the grass is always greener...on the side that you water it.
so if and when you attempt to do so, grab some cheap cards to practice on.
*not having to hear or explain to the wife that you just bought another $5k card or getting that surprising, yet quasi-justifiable $5k bloomingdales hit on the amex is also an added benefit of a crackout. its impossible to win that spat. so to me, its worth the already damned pop reports for that reason alone.
eta: and grote continuously offers sound advice. if he chimes in, its w good reason. hear him out and let it marinate.
My wife has sold a pair of her Chanel's for 70% of original purchase price on eBay. The purses actually can appreciate. Most designer shoes she said can be sold to a consignment shop for 20 to 30 cents on the dollar. Better than zero!
yes but its hard to retort against "well you spent so and so on a piece of plastic and cardboard" w a straight face to anyone that is not a collector.
and i agree 100% w what ya said, but she does look better in that dress than i do holding that piece of cardboard in my hand.
In 2015 I sent in a 59 Mantle. Card was previously graded an SGC 7 and was centered beautifully. I sent the card in on a crossover to PSA with a minimum grade of 7 specified to get it into a PSA holder. I was shocked to find out that it did not cross. So instead of cracking the card out and sending back in, I decided to send the card back in a second time in an attempt to cross over into an equal grade. Luckily this time the card did come back a PSA 7. So with that being said I have had success getting a card to crossover after a second look.