Controversy in Cooperstown

craig44 · January 31, 2017 5:42AM

Frank Thomas has come out as the first hofer that I know of to speak against two of this year's inductees. Good on the big hurt to say what some members are too afraid to say. Could make for some awkward moments during hof weekend I would imagine. My only issue is that as far as I know, bagwell has no witnesses or failed drug tests to indict him. Not saying he didn't use, but I am just not sure with him. Rodriguez of course has the canseco book against him.
What say you?

orioles93 · January 31, 2017 7:34AM

The hall already includes known cheaters (spitballs, amphetamines, ball doctoring, etc). It also includes klan members, alcoholics, drug addicts, womanizers, racists, players with mob connections, and plenty of other inappropriate behavior. In short, I don't really care to much about guys taking steroids when 75% of the league was doing it.

craig44 · January 31, 2017 7:44AM

In keeping the current conversation to peds, how are amphetamines any different than a cortisone shot?

orioles93 · January 31, 2017 7:49AM

A cortisone shot is to relieve pain and inflammation. Amphetamines are a stimulant.

craig44 · January 31, 2017 8:35AM

Do you consider both to be peds? It seems from your previous post that you lump amphetamines in with PED's? Or am i mistaken?

orioles93 · January 31, 2017 8:47AM

I do not consider cortisone to be a PED cause it doesn't enhance performance. It relieves pain. Amphetamines are a type of performance enhancer in that it has cognitive effects such as enhanced concentration and it is also used to improve endurance and stamina. Some studies show that amphetamines can help in building muscle to.
Now of course amphetamines are different than today's steroids and have different effects and uses, but the intent is all the same. To me, Schmidt, Aaron, Gossage and many others during their time used amphetamines to gain an advantage at some point. That means that they knowingly used an outside enhancer to cheat, compared to other players who did not use them. The effects of the drugs used were different than say bonds and mcgwire using modern steroids, but the intent of cheating using an outside enhancer was still the same.

craig44 · January 31, 2017 9:36AM

Do you think cortisone shots enhanced koufax's ability to pitch in 1966? I would say it absolutely did, therefore, it is a performance enhancer in the same way "greenies" enhance the performance of a tired/exhausted athlete.

orioles93 · January 31, 2017 9:45AM

I'm not so sure it enhanced his pitching ability, but it definitely enhanced his health. The shots made it so that he could pitch in the first place so yes it could be a PED in a way. Cortisone kind of makes it so athletes in pain can get on the field, but I don't think it really enhances anything outside of that. It doesn't build long term strength and muscle or anything like that. Personally I think cortisone is kind of a gray area because it is meant directly for pain relief. Greenies to me are like light, short term steroids in that they have lots of the same effects of steroids but most are short term and only last if you keep taking them.

craig44 · January 31, 2017 9:54AM

Greenies traditionally have been used by athletes during long road trips or late in the season as a pick me up. Almost like a huge dose of 5 hour energy. They sort of reverse that long term tired and allow the player to feel like it is may in September. A true PED in my opinion changes the bodies composition and makes a player a better version of themselves. The lower end "treatments" like cortisone or amphetamines return an injured or tired player to their regular healthy self.

grote15 · January 31, 2017 12:35PM

There's an old legal saying about pornography in that it is difficult to define but I know it when I see it.

To me, there is a reasonable analogy between that and PEDs. "Greenies," "spitballs" and cortisone shots may have enhanced player performance to one extent or another, but those substances do not fit into my definition of PEDs, at least to the extent of the human growth hormones and other illicit substances that players have been using and injecting themselves with over the course of the "steroid era."

craig44 · January 31, 2017 1:17PM

I agree grote

garnettstyle · January 31, 2017 5:49PM

Thomas is right. How in the world are pudge, bag well, and piazza in? And bonds and Clemons are not? I have no opinion on bagwell, but pretty sure piazza and pudge were big ped users.

Justacommeman · February 2, 2017 7:42PM

How do we know with 100% certainty that Thomas didn't use?

mark

BLUEJAYWAY · February 2, 2017 8:11PM

Am planning a trip to the HOF in Feb. Like to go off season. Will have to see if there is any "buzz" in the hallowed hall or in the town about this matter.

orioles93 · February 2, 2017 8:23PM

@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Am planning a trip to the HOF in Feb. Like to go off season. Will have to see if there is any "buzz" in the hallowed hall or in the town about this matter.

I was just up there at the hall early last week. It is nice going in the off season. There may have been 30 people total in the whole museum. The only downside is that there isn't much going on in the town in the winter. Most stores were closed until spring. There wasn't much there regarding the new inductees. Still lots of Griffey and piazza stuff from last year.

craig44 · February 3, 2017 4:16PM

I go for induction week every year. It will be interesting to see the tone of the crowd this summer. I love the excitement of induction weekend.

As far as knowing if Thomas used, it is impossible to prove a negative. But he was one of the first, if not the first player to vehemently speak against ped use. He also campaigned for testing. He never failed a test. circumstantially, thomas was always a large man, from college through retirement. I saw him just last summer in Cooperstown and he is still huge. He had a natural career arc. there Was no late career surge. Canseco nor the Mitchell report implicated him .

bronco2078 · February 3, 2017 6:19PM

>

As far as knowing if Thomas used, it is impossible to prove a negative. But he was one of the first, if not the first player to vehemently speak against ped use. .

Lance Armstrong was vehement as I recall also but he was filthy

Justacommeman · February 4, 2017 8:50AM

@bronco2078 said:
>

As far as knowing if Thomas used, it is impossible to prove a negative. But he was one of the first, if not the first player to vehemently speak against ped use. .

Lance Armstrong was vehement as I recall also but he was filthy

Yep.

And Lance had me hook line and sinker. I spent a small fortune to participate in a mountain bike race in which he was the main draw. ( proud to say I passed him on the way up) The irony is that I was using HGH at the time as it wasn't a banned substance. Anyways I bought 1000 of the LiveStrong yellow wrist bands at the event. Still have a bunch that I didn't pass out. If anyone wants some shoot me a PM

mark

craig44 · February 4, 2017 7:54PM

Which m lb former player, coach, manager, front office exec, trainer or anyone else in the know has ever implicated thomas? What would make you think he used? Is it guilt by association because he played baseball in the 90's?

Justacommeman · February 5, 2017 7:56AM

Sometimes those who speak the loudest or first have the most to hide. It doesn't make a case stronger. I have no idea if Thomas used or not.

The 90's sucked for baseball.

mark

estang · February 5, 2017 12:44PM

Zero upside for Thomas to critique his HOF inductees... best left to say his true thoughts off the record.

Coinstartled · March 10, 2017 8:34AM

@Justacommeman said:
How do we know with 100% certainty that Thomas didn't use?

mark

I don't know if Thomas took advantage of PED's or not. That is the evil of cheating. The honest player becomes suspect only because of the actions of his cohorts who disregard the rules.

He has to work three times as hard to compete with the cheaters, and the better he performs, the more questions are raised.

Controversy in Cooperstown

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