An interesting bust quarter die marriage

Desert Moon

I have started collecting bust quarter by die marriage, and heck even die state if there is an excuse to by an eye appealing duplicate. Most of what I try to get has nice color but not all. I try to go for eye appeal and quality for the grade. Some times you get lucky. The P 62 below I got on the floor at ANA in Anaheim last year. Had to pay up, but took the risk as there was no bean, although I was pretty sure it would bean. Well it came back and did.

This is the 1834 B1 die marriage. It has at least 5 recognized die states so fun to always look at. What is neat about this die marriage in particular is the reverse - they 'forgot' to put the period after C in 25 C, early die states show that the tips of the eagles claws at left are clearly doubled. It is also the Redbook variety O over F in 'OF' where the tops of the O and F are connected - presumably the O was repunched and the remnants are there between the O and F. There is also other interesting die markers on the reverse - M is missing most of it left upright and the first A is partially filled. This is observed in the early die states. The P45 below shows those features and is die state P, before clashes show up on the obverse.

The P62 is the latest observed die state. As you can see, the dies are rotated, multiple shield clashes on the obverse, nice die crack through the lower bust. On the reverse, the die had been lapped and the duplicate claws and early repunched O were removed. The lowest olive leaves are detached owing to this process. So a cool die marriage to collect and will look for more die states.

I also show below an intermediate die state b that is between the other two. The dies were also rotated but not as much as in the LDS.

Best, SH

msch1man

Great post! All great coins, but wow, that 62 is really pretty. I love bust quarters...very interesting series and very challenging. Just collecting by die marriage is challenging enough, but by marriage and die state is quite an undertaking. I've never added it all up, roughly how many coins would be in a set that was complete by die marriage and recognized die state?

Desert Moon

Good question, if one includes draped bust quarters, there are 96 known die marriages. The most owned by a collector in the latest JRCS census was 93. On average let's say, there are probably 4 recognized die states for each - the Tompkins and Rea et al. books can be slightly different for die states for each die marriage. So you can do the math, life long pursuit. I have 40 die marriages, of which another 20 are dupes in different die states. I figure I have decades to go, and I like good coins for the grade, with minimal to no intentional messing up. But that is nothing compared to die marriages and states in the draped and capped bust half series'. Tiny in comparison. I talked to one person at FUN who had 340 die marriages of bust halves, and many more to go.........

Best, SH

USMarine6

I can see why you paid up for it. Sweet coin

coinsRgood

Hmmmm

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I see a circular scratch (staple?) across the lower obverse and a wisp of rub on the questionably toned so-called MS 62. I must be wrong as it has the coveted CAC sticker. Could it be a die break rather than a scratch?

scubafuel

Yeah, it's a die crack obviously, as mentioned by OP. 1834 B-1 is an interesting one. In addition to missing the period on the reverse, the eagle is a completely different design than most other marriages. The left wing (facing) is narrower, and the shield has 2 vertical stripes (pale gules) rather than 3. Why is this eagle different? No idea.

Despite being in the CP guide, B-1 is the most common marriage, and anecdotally seems more available than all the other 1834 marriages combined. Such that if you had a bucket of them (how cool would that be) and you reached in blindly, odds are you'd have a B-1 in your hand. Not exactly "cherrypicking". I think the CP guide could have chosen a tougher variety, honestly.
B-1 also comes REALLY nice sometimes, as evidenced by you MS62 piece. It's not often bust quarters look like that. My nicest toned bust quarter is also an 1834 B-1.

Congrats on getting to 40 marriages! If you like them to look somewhat nice as well, boy are you in for a challenge

coinsRgood

Ahah, it is a die break.

I'm surprised it was acquired at last year's Summer ANA and thereafter beaned. I just assume that anything of this value that is on the market would already have been submitted to CAC.

You are experts in the series and I never paid much attention to it. I prefer the older, larger early quarters.

Enjoy your specialty!

WDP

I see a circular scratch (staple?) across the lower obverse and a wisp of rub on the questionably toned so-called MS 62. I must be wrong as it has the coveted CAC sticker. Could it be a die break rather than a scratch?

coinsRgood, what you are looking at on spacehayduke's 1834 quarter is a thin die crack across the lower obverse. In the book Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint 1796-1838 the break is described as, "Obverse cracked in an arc below S1 (star 1, lower left) to curl on neck to Star 13 (lower right) to rim." There is a closeup plate photo of this die crack on page 261 of the book that matches well to spacehayduke's 1834 quarter.

Nice 1834 Quarter spacehayduke! I love the color and look as well as the late die state.

I also agree with what you said, "Collecting by die marriage and die state is a good excuse for buying more coins (from a particular series)!" I have collected the U.S. Dollars of 1798 by die marriage, and die state for over 30 years now. I have a very late die state 1819 B-4 Quarter tucked away, with neat "double die break" through the date. I don't have a photo yet for this coin, but for those of you who have the Rea Quarter book it is plated in the book on page 125.

If you collect the large size Capped Bust Quarters, here is a photo of an 1818 B-6 Quarter you may enjoy, an R-4+ (die marriage) with a pretty shattered reverse. I bought this from a long time early quarter collector at FUN. It's also posted on my website (and is for sale). It is graded PCGS VF30.

http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/silver.html?cat=84

Good topic!

W. David Perkins
http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/

Desert Moon

@coinsRgood said:
Hmmmm

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I see a circular scratch (staple?) across the lower obverse and a wisp of rub on the questionably toned so-called MS 62. I must be wrong as it has the coveted CAC sticker. Could it be a die break rather than a scratch?

I am surprised you would think it is questionably tone? Has the right color progression, the toning lies under the stars for example, not on them, and PCGS and CAC seem to agree that the toning is okay(?). So can you elaborate for me at to your conclusion on that point?

'so-called 62'? You really can't tell that from an image, you need to have the coin in hand and watch what the luster does under the light - if there is a break, they call it AU, if the luster fully rotates through the whole surface, MS - at least that is why my ANA grading guide says and has been my experience. What you see as rub is likely to be a strike issue. Could you elaborate on that as well? HST, in todays market grading, a wisp of rub seems to be perfectly acceptable on a 62. If this one doesn't meet your standards I would love for you to show us what does as it will obviously be spectacular and pretty much better than any 62 I have seen. Hard series to find amazing coins in.

Best, SH

Desert Moon

@scubafuel said:
Yeah, it's a die crack obviously, as mentioned by OP. 1834 B-1 is an interesting one. In addition to missing the period on the reverse, the eagle is a completely different design than most other marriages. The left wing (facing) is narrower, and the shield has 2 vertical stripes (pale gules) rather than 3. Why is this eagle different? No idea.

Despite being in the CP guide, B-1 is the most common marriage, and anecdotally seems more available than all the other 1834 marriages combined. Such that if you had a bucket of them (how cool would that be) and you reached in blindly, odds are you'd have a B-1 in your hand. Not exactly "cherrypicking". I think the CP guide could have chosen a tougher variety, honestly.
B-1 also comes REALLY nice sometimes, as evidenced by you MS62 piece. It's not often bust quarters look like that. My nicest toned bust quarter is also an 1834 B-1.

Congrats on getting to 40 marriages! If you like them to look somewhat nice as well, boy are you in for a challenge

Thanks for the insights sucbafel. I think the CP guide chose it because there is alot going on with the marriage. Common as nails but lots of die progression makes it interesting. Certainly no premium for the marriage. And yes, I am in for a heck of a challenge to find nice ones, hence a lifelong and enjoyable pursuit.

Best, SH

lkeigwin

The toning on the MS62 is about as original as they come. Absolutely superb.

Great coins, SH.
Lance.

coinsRgood

@spacehayduke said:

I am surprised you would think it is questionably tone? Has the right color progression, the toning lies under the stars for example, not on them, and PCGS and CAC seem to agree that the toning is okay(?). So can you elaborate for me at to your conclusion on that point?

'so-called 62'? You really can't tell that from an image, you need to have the coin in hand and watch what the luster does under the light - if there is a break, they call it AU, if the luster fully rotates through the whole surface, MS - at least that is why my ANA grading guide says and has been my experience. What you see as rub is likely to be a strike issue. Could you elaborate on that as well? HST, in todays market grading, a wisp of rub seems to be perfectly acceptable on a 62. >

Obviously, to comment intelligently the coin needs to be in-hand.

That said, I don't like the "look" of the toning in the image, but it does seem to be commonplace on this type.

I never cared for "softy" strikes and this could be one. I am old school, and a coin with any rub (called "cabinet friction" years ago) cannot qualify as uncircuated IMO. Coins don't get rub, a form of wear, without circulating.

I do believe that many so-called unc coins spent a short time in circulation.

Desert Moon

@coinsRgood said:

@spacehayduke said:

I am surprised you would think it is questionably tone? Has the right color progression, the toning lies under the stars for example, not on them, and PCGS and CAC seem to agree that the toning is okay(?). So can you elaborate for me at to your conclusion on that point?

'so-called 62'? You really can't tell that from an image, you need to have the coin in hand and watch what the luster does under the light - if there is a break, they call it AU, if the luster fully rotates through the whole surface, MS - at least that is why my ANA grading guide says and has been my experience. What you see as rub is likely to be a strike issue. Could you elaborate on that as well? HST, in todays market grading, a wisp of rub seems to be perfectly acceptable on a 62. >

Obviously, to comment intelligently the coin needs to be in-hand.

That said, I don't like the "look" of the toning in the image, but it does seem to be commonplace on this type.

I never cared for "softy" strikes and this could be one. I am old school, and a coin with any rub (called "cabinet friction" years ago) cannot qualify as uncircuated IMO. Coins don't get rub, a form of wear, without circulating.

I do believe that many so-called unc coins spent a short time in circulation.

I hear ya on the strike and rub issues. Some die marriages just come with soft strike for bust series, can't avoid it if one wants to collect by die marriage. One mans 62 is anothers 58 as they say.

I think you will find alot of folks will argue this toning to be original and not intentionally human enhanced. Doesn't make it so however, and that is why one persons toning preference will be different from the next persons.

Best, SH

Desert Moon

@WDP said:
I see a circular scratch (staple?) across the lower obverse and a wisp of rub on the questionably toned so-called MS 62. I must be wrong as it has the coveted CAC sticker. Could it be a die break rather than a scratch?

coinsRgood, what you are looking at on spacehayduke's 1834 quarter is a thin die crack across the lower obverse. In the book Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint 1796-1838 the break is described as, "Obverse cracked in an arc below S1 (star 1, lower left) to curl on neck to Star 13 (lower right) to rim." There is a closeup plate photo of this die crack on page 261 of the book that matches well to spacehayduke's 1834 quarter.

Nice 1834 Quarter spacehayduke! I love the color and look as well as the late die state.

I also agree with what you said, "Collecting by die marriage and die state is a good excuse for buying more coins (from a particular series)!" I have collected the U.S. Dollars of 1798 by die marriage, and die state for over 30 years now. I have a very late die state 1819 B-4 Quarter tucked away, with neat "double die break" through the date. I don't have a photo yet for this coin, but for those of you who have the Rea Quarter book it is plated in the book on page 125.

If you collect the large size Capped Bust Quarters, here is a photo of an 1818 B-6 Quarter you may enjoy, an R-4+ (die marriage) with a pretty shattered reverse. I bought this from a long time early quarter collector at FUN. It's also posted on my website (and is for sale). It is graded PCGS VF30.

http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/silver.html?cat=84

Good topic!

W. David Perkins
http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/

This is a gorgeous and interesting CBQ WDP, thanks for posting it, thanks for all of the info.

Best, SH

DIMEMAN

Great collection you are going after. Love all the examples shown here.

ldhair

Pretty coins.

hchcoin

Awesome coin.

Sunshine Rare Coins

Love the 1834!

1Bustcollector

A wonderful display Spacehayduke! Beautiful color. Welcome aboard to the world of Bust quarters.

Nice write up and comments Mr. W. David Perkins, I love the 1818 B-6 with those dramatic die cracks!

RR

Desert Moon

Thanks folks for the discussion.

Best, SH