While I'm not a longtime expert numismatist or professional grader, I believe my opinion is well-founded and a product of significant reflection upon the subject. If you are or have been a professional grader you know very well that eye appeal is a significant part of the grading equation. Perhaps it wasn't always, but certainly today the "big" TPGs openly state that it is so. Eye appeal is not objective. Can't be. Never will be. Actually, we probably can't even all agree on which sort of luster is most desirable. Maybe I actually like brown soggy bananas. Maybe I'm shopping for bananas to use for banana bread. Just because you want a certain banana doesn't mean we all do. (Actually I dislike bananas in all forms.)
You assert that grading "has NOTHING to do with value." Maybe that's how you see it, but take a look at the Greysheet, CoinFacts, the CU Price guide, auction records, or any other trade reference. They all stratify value (or price, if you prefer) according to grade. Right or wrong, that's how most collectors and dealers see it. When considering a purchase or sale, the grade represents a starting point, subject to modification because as you state, not all MS65s are created equal. So grading doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with value, but it very clearly has SOMETHING to do with it.
Honestly, I don't really care as long as I can buy the coin I like at a price I agree with, have some expectation of reasonable acceptability and value at the time of a future sale, and have fun along the way. Unlike many dealers, I don't live or die by the numbers on the slabs. I just think there is a human element to collecting that a computer will have a hard time dealing with. I'm sure someone will eventually roll out computer grading on a larger scale, but in the end it will just be another useful, but imperfect system that we'll all have to learn and deal with, just as we all do with the current one.
YIKES! I should have been in bed rather than posting! Didn't even catch that mistake and THANKS. Totally embarrassed.
Correction made to reflect my actual definition: Grading is a SUBJECTIVE observation made to access the condition of preservation and RELATIVE RANKING among similar objects.
While I'm not a longtime expert numismatist or professional grader, I believe my opinion is well-founded and a product of significant reflection upon the subject. If you are or have been a professional grader you know very well that eye appeal is a significant part of the grading equation. Perhaps it wasn't always, but certainly today the "big" TPGs openly state that it is so. Eye appeal is not objective. Can't be. Never will be. Actually, we probably can't even all agree on which sort of luster is most desirable. Maybe I actually like brown soggy bananas. Maybe I'm shopping for bananas to use for banana bread. Just because you want a certain banana doesn't mean we all do. (Actually I dislike bananas in all forms.)
You assert that grading "has NOTHING to do with value." Maybe that's how you see it, but take a look at the Greysheet, CoinFacts, the CU Price guide, auction records, or any other trade reference. They all stratify value (or price, if you prefer) according to grade. Right or wrong, that's how most collectors and dealers see it. When considering a purchase or sale, the grade represents a starting point, subject to modification because as you state, not all MS65s are created equal. So grading doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with value, but it very clearly has SOMETHING to do with it.
Honestly, I don't really care as long as I can buy the coin I like at a price I agree with, have some expectation of reasonable acceptability and value at the time of a future sale, and have fun along the way. Unlike many dealers, I don't live or die by the numbers on the slabs. I just think there is a human element to collecting that a computer will have a hard time dealing with. I'm sure someone will eventually roll out computer grading on a larger scale, but in the end it will just be another useful, but imperfect system that we'll all have to learn and deal with, just as we all do with the current one.
I'll deal with your post later but for now...Two long-time, knowledgeable, successful, major dealers (5% of dealers?) are sitting across from each other. How much for that one? $$$$. How much for this one $$$$. I'll take it, How much for this... What's "right" with this picture? There is not a price guide CRUTCH in sight.
A perfect description of grades/price guides. They probably do make it easier to sell where dealers are concerned, because an independent grade on an insert goes a fairly long way in lessening price resistance from an uniformed buyer.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I have no problem with that. Both of those dealers have enough knowledge to conduct transactions without looking at a sheet. I can do the same in a narrow niche of the market.
Familiarity with the market valuation of a coin does not separate grades and values though. I guarantee what a dealer will pay is influenced (at least a little) by the number on the slab insert. Right or wrong, what the eventual average collector (end consumer) will be willing to pay depends enormously on the grade. Variations and exceptions are of course common. All AU58 CBH coins are not equal. This is especially true once you get to high-end pieces and savvy collectors.
For 90% of what churns around the bourse, at mom & pop coin stores, at auction, or over the Internet, the grade is the price.
@BryceM said:
I have no problem with that. Both of those dealers have enough knowledge to conduct transactions without looking at a sheet. I can do the same in a narrow niche of the market.
Familiarity with the market valuation of a coin does not separate grades and values though. I guarantee what a dealer will pay is influenced (at least a little) by the number on the slab insert. Right or wrong, what the eventual average collector (end consumer) will be willing to pay depends enormously on the grade. Variations and exceptions are of course common. All AU58 CBH coins are not equal. This is especially true once you get to high-end pieces and savvy collectors.
For 90% of what churns around the bourse, at mom & pop coin stores, at auction, or over the Internet, the grade is the price.
For 60% of what churns around the bourse, at mom & pop coin stores, at auction, or over the internet THE GRADE (of the raw coin) IS WHATEVER SOMEONE SAYS IT IS AND SO IS THE PRICE. Both are subjective and they are technically not universal or connected except in the mind of each individual.
Comments
I believe it wb eventually a reality along w self grading / self calc MV holder you can buy at Walmart for $2.
However that is a long way off.
@Insider2
While I'm not a longtime expert numismatist or professional grader, I believe my opinion is well-founded and a product of significant reflection upon the subject. If you are or have been a professional grader you know very well that eye appeal is a significant part of the grading equation. Perhaps it wasn't always, but certainly today the "big" TPGs openly state that it is so. Eye appeal is not objective. Can't be. Never will be. Actually, we probably can't even all agree on which sort of luster is most desirable. Maybe I actually like brown soggy bananas. Maybe I'm shopping for bananas to use for banana bread. Just because you want a certain banana doesn't mean we all do. (Actually I dislike bananas in all forms.)
You assert that grading "has NOTHING to do with value." Maybe that's how you see it, but take a look at the Greysheet, CoinFacts, the CU Price guide, auction records, or any other trade reference. They all stratify value (or price, if you prefer) according to grade. Right or wrong, that's how most collectors and dealers see it. When considering a purchase or sale, the grade represents a starting point, subject to modification because as you state, not all MS65s are created equal. So grading doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with value, but it very clearly has SOMETHING to do with it.
Honestly, I don't really care as long as I can buy the coin I like at a price I agree with, have some expectation of reasonable acceptability and value at the time of a future sale, and have fun along the way. Unlike many dealers, I don't live or die by the numbers on the slabs. I just think there is a human element to collecting that a computer will have a hard time dealing with. I'm sure someone will eventually roll out computer grading on a larger scale, but in the end it will just be another useful, but imperfect system that we'll all have to learn and deal with, just as we all do with the current one.
YIKES! I should have been in bed rather than posting! Didn't even catch that mistake and THANKS. Totally embarrassed.
Correction made to reflect my actual definition: Grading is a SUBJECTIVE observation made to access the condition of preservation and RELATIVE RANKING among similar objects.
I'll deal with your post later but for now...Two long-time, knowledgeable, successful, major dealers (5% of dealers?) are sitting across from each other. How much for that one? $$$$. How much for this one $$$$. I'll take it, How much for this... What's "right" with this picture? There is not a price guide CRUTCH in sight.
"There is not a price guide CRUTCH in sight."
A perfect description of grades/price guides. They probably do make it easier to sell where dealers are concerned, because an independent grade on an insert goes a fairly long way in lessening price resistance from an uniformed buyer.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I have no problem with that. Both of those dealers have enough knowledge to conduct transactions without looking at a sheet. I can do the same in a narrow niche of the market.
Familiarity with the market valuation of a coin does not separate grades and values though. I guarantee what a dealer will pay is influenced (at least a little) by the number on the slab insert. Right or wrong, what the eventual average collector (end consumer) will be willing to pay depends enormously on the grade. Variations and exceptions are of course common. All AU58 CBH coins are not equal. This is especially true once you get to high-end pieces and savvy collectors.
For 90% of what churns around the bourse, at mom & pop coin stores, at auction, or over the Internet, the grade is the price.
For 60% of what churns around the bourse, at mom & pop coin stores, at auction, or over the internet THE GRADE (of the raw coin) IS WHATEVER SOMEONE SAYS IT IS AND SO IS THE PRICE. Both are subjective and they are technically not universal or connected except in the mind of each individual.