NEWP: 1601 Hungary. Rudolph II Double Taler - Mega Rarity
Zohar
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In superficially scanning the Heritage Platinum Night Lot 34287, it seemed did not blend as well with the Platinum Night selection as it did not share the same exceptional quality you would typically find. However, in my time collecting Holy Roman Empire material, I have never seen a Rudolph II Kremnitz Mint (Hungary) Double Taler until coming across this lot. The heft of the coin which fits a thicker slab is felt immediately.
Spoke to EVP prior to live auction in an attempt to price this piece realizing that there are no comps yet recognizing this coin may be a sleeper in terms of relative scarcity. We both decided to go for it while speaking by phone as the live bidding commenced. 3 bidders and no real fight for the coin.
Tried searching, translating, across auction record and auction house sites only to come up with the same piece at the Frühwald auction in February 2015 where this exact coin was sold. The description did not give much in terms of scarcity - https://sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=1758&category=36703&lot=1558483
On March 2016... the same coin was PCGS slabbed and included in the Gorny and Mosch sale with a higher estimate which went unsold https://sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=2532&category=52975&lot=2150196
This auction description (Translated) gave much more information which tells the story behind this coin:
HUNGARY
Rudolf II, 1576 - 1612. Doppeltaler 1601 KB. Mzst. Kremnitz, Germany. 25.93 g. J. 296. Dav. 17. RRR! PCGS AU 50. Fine patina, strongly pronounced relief, vz ex early Frühwald A112 (02/2015), Lot no. 421 (Hammer: 13.500, -). To our knowledge, the only known specimen in private hands.
"To our knowledge, the only known specimen in private hands" - I believe this to be a very unique addition to my collection, and while less "eye appealing", it is very scarce and can not be replaced with ease or at all. Research tools available on the web today allow for better information gathering and decision support. I am very pleased. Hopefully the bourse floor provides for additional opportunities to add to the core collection.
Comments
That is a monster piece. Unique in private hands? That alone is quite amazing in today's marketplace. Congrats on a good win. If you need to break it to make some change, let me know and I will send a couple of talers your way for easier spending.
Congrats on the win!!!
Reading the description...
25.93 grams? Am I reading that correctly, is that accurate? If so, that is almost a gram less than a Morgan/Peace dollar. I would have guessed a Double Taler to weigh in the vicinity of 45 grams or more. The coin looks bigger than 25.93 grams, but I can't judge the thickness. Edited to add -- I assume these were struck in .900 Ag (or finer).
Jeff
Prior to execution, I told Zohar that I felt the coin was worth at least 6K (bid). That it went for so low was a big surprise. That the estimate in the German auctions were so much higher was an even bigger shock. We found this out after Zohar had won.
Now here's a question for the forum friends: who thinks Zohar should pay for dinner? (We're having dinner this week at a modestly priced restaurant this week with my wife and one other person.)
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
You are absolutely right Jeff. This carried over from the listing translation which is wrong as is the DAV # which is DAV 3011. Will try to get the correct weight if I find the source.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
From looking at the other Hall mint 2T come out to 56-57 grams of silver. I don't have a direct reference to this type, yet assume that these denominations are always linked to weight in silver
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
From a complete novice with respect to these pieces, this sounds reasonable -- ~28 grams * 2. With my guess of at least 45 grams I was attempting to be conservative as I didn't know if weight and denomination were directly proportional at that time. Perhaps it should read 55.93 g?
Jeff
Congratulations.
It must have been very exciting, especially in the moment, when you realized the relative rarity of this piece.
I assume you'll continue to pursue the coins history, surely I think it's safe to say we want to hear more about it.
If it can be determined, it would be very interesting to determine where any others like it are held. I would imagine, from the description of the German Auction House, that the only others of it's type would be in museum collections.
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I have seen range of 55-57gr as I assume they could not perfect it and/or some metal wear/planchet flaws take away from overall weight. Overall, metal/silver weighting was linked to the denomination.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
Big and rare?! A 75% discount from its auction price 2 years ago?! And has EVP's blessing?!
Can't beat that!
Congratulations on a significant acquisition!
I say he should pay for dinner and maybe upgrade the restaurant and/or wine list. That is super fantastic! Sorry Zohar. I'm siding with EVP on this one.
Regarding its fineness, I think it is officially .892, not .900. That was the fineness of our early US dollars, to match the European standard of the day. We switched to .900 fineness starting with the Liberty Seated coinage types.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
A very impressive piece, congratulations!
Virtus Collection - Renaissance and Baroque Medals
What a coincidence! Not a 2 thaler but a 1 thaler from the same mint and year. It was one of the last coins I purchased last year. I can't verify the Davenport number -- it's not listed in Krause as such.
Very nice - you have the DAV correct https://ngccoin.com/auction-central/world/hungary-1601-1799-including-transylvania-scid-160/auctions/1601kb-hungary-dav-3013-taler-ms-coinid-260399
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
Thanks for that link Zohar and congratulations on a great acquisition. Good luck on finding source of info for your 2T.
I can definitely appreciate the joy and surprise at finding such a truly rare item. Congratulations Z!
Dinner worthy for sure!
In the Lajos Huszar (1979) reference on Pg. 156 Cat.# 1024 there is a
Doppeltaler listed for the date 1601. A reference listed is:
Corpus Nummorum Hungariae CIII 125. Pictures of other Talers on
pages 154-158 are similar but not exact matches. My German is non-
existant so I am unable to translate any further. It is listed as a R-10
but I am unable to find any table to help any further.
Congrats...
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Amazing find! Congrats! And I love the enigma - that's the feeling of the hunt I enjoy most in this hobby. Keep us updated on what you find out!
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Great find, and congrat's, yes keep us posted - love how this played out for you.
Notice the G&M photo is the best of them all - likely what it looks like in hand.