Hand cut questions: Updated with new cards ready for submission.

LOTSOS

My most recent submission finally popped the other day and the cards will be delivered this afternoon. I was planning on waiting to look at the results but curiosity got the best of me and I looked at the first few. They were all the 1985 Box bottoms that I submitted. I'm looking to find a high grade Perreault for my registry and decided to try and find it myself. These box bottoms were already cut when I got them with a few raw sets that I bought but I figured I'd give it a shot and see where they fell. I picked up one of these:
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I used it to square up the cards because who ever did them obviously used scissors and wasn't exactly straight or square. I literally shaved the edges to help true them up and compared them to the sizes of the actual 1985 cards and they were all less then a 1/16 shy most a hair or less short of the standard size cards. All the ones I subbed popped unfortunately Authentic only.
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Now my dilemma. Here is what the bottoms look like:
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Notice who's located right above Perreault? I have 3 Topps and 3 OPC bottoms that are completely intact and need to be cut. Half of them have a flaw on the Lemieux quadrant so it makes the trimming of those easier because I can cheat a little to give the Perreault its full border. The others are very nice and since I'm slowly building 1985 graded sets I'd love to hit the Lemieux too. Here is what a mint example looks like:
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Notice that the bottom border has what appears to be the nearly entire black line that separates the two cards. So I'm not sure if I can successfully divide it between the two.
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So my questions:

1) Is it remotely possible to divide the panel and get both to grade or is it going to be a one or the other decission?

2) Anyone that has subbed hand cuts in the past what advice do you have to help improve my chances?

Thanks,
Kevin

Tomi

That is the problem with hand cut panels. If they don't meet size requirements they will only be labeled "authentic". If you split the 2 cards down the middle with the cutter that you purchased it might take out enough to have both cards be too short. I think you might have to sacrifice a card for another but you will never know unless you experiment. I have never actually cut a hand cut card for submission but I think a very fine pair of scissors with a steady hand is a suggestion. Just practice on some worthless cards and cut the borders on those cards and see how good you can cut. I was on the phone with Joe Orlando friday about some already graded panels that I have and he made it very clear that any waviness on the panel or the card will deduct points. He also said that the overall look of the card also plays a factor so it's possible if you leave enough of the black line it might also deduct points when grading. Hope any of this helps and I'm very curious what you choose to do to cut the cards and the grades you get back after submitting.

georgebailey2

There are a few threads about this that you can search. Also, there is a board member who has done cutting for other board members.
However, I am not sure your first question has ever been fully answered. That said, based upon the PSA guidelines on hand-cut cards, if there is a defined border, solid or dotted lines, then I am fairly confident you will need to sacrifice one of two cards in order to preserve the border.

Arsenal83

I always thought this guideline by PSA was the absolute stupidest. Factory cut cards don't have cut lines visible and still get graded. It is still possible to have a full size hand cut card and split the black cut line between the cards with a precise enough cutting tool. I really wish they would reevaluate their policy because I cringe at how many cards end up trashed because of their current guidelines.

pengvin67

Hello there,

I always had a fun time doing box bottoms. I am not sure if these pictures will come through as I don't post a whole bunch. In any case, you should definitely be able to get 4 cards out of each panel without having to sacrifice. Of course, this has to be done very carefully. The key is that you don't have to be 'perfect' on the borders. You can use them as a guide, but if you make the cut a little under or a little over, the main part is keeping the card above the 3.5 inch x 2.5 inch requirement. You can go over of course, but once you go under the minimum requirement, it will grade authentic. I have cut over 100 cards by now. I am posting a variety of them and you can kind of see each card isn't perfectly bordered (you can see white lines around some of the cards and some don't even have the black edges that you noticed on the Mario). You definitely want to use the device you bought. I use a similar type device. I would take a ruler, run it parallel to the borders and lightly pencil out and extend all of the borders on the panel. I'm not sure if that makes sense. The first cuts I would make would be where you penciled out the borders to the edge. The first cut can go top to bottom or side to side. The side to side is a shorter cut. After you make the first cut, then you have the penciled mark remaining and can use a good eye with your cutter to mark where you want to cut down the next cut. You always want to be careful not to just cut without slowly putting the blade down to exactly where you want to make the first cut. I'm not sure this will make sense in reading, but you want to reduce your panel to 4 oversized cards. At this point you want to use a ruler to keep measuring as you make cuts of the remaining 4 panels. You want to make sure you don't go below the 3.5 inches from top to bottom and 2.5 inches side to side. If it's over a bit, that's ok. You can try to use the markings on the device to line up the borders as you make your cuts. The first cut is important that it cuts straight down right along the border. If it cuts at a tiny bit of an angle, it can throw everything off. That's why you use the pencil to set up your cut points. I'm going to let you read this and then see what questions you have. I'm not sure if this makes sense at all!

LOTSOS

Thanks to all who took the time to reply especially pengvin67 for the detailed description.

Here is a scan of the ones I got back from PSA. I guess this is one example of how a fraction of an inch can make a huge difference. The eye appeal on the ones I sent is pretty good but 1/32 on all 4 sides adds up to too much. I read PSAs criteria for hand cut cards before I sent them in and unfortunately as it was already pointed out its pretty vague regarding sizing saying only:

"Keep in mind that, for cards that do not possess visible/defined borders, the cards must still fall within a certain size requirement for that particular issue in order to qualify for an actual grade. In other words, the borders must be virtually full in order for a grade to be rendered"

Apparently my idea of "virtually full" was a little off. Lesson learned for $18, but like I said I wanted to test out the ones that were already rough cut when I acquired them before I started hacking into the full bottoms. I will probably get them cut over the next few weeks and send them in with my next sub later this month or early next. I will update this post with photos as I go for anyone that's curious.

Thanks,
Kevin
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Tomi

Did you use scissors or the cutting tool? The sides look a little wavy so it looks like scissors.

LOTSOS

These came with a raw set of '85 Topps that I picked up. They were already cut and done pretty poorly. Even though it may not look like it I did straighten them up considerably with the paper cutter. I tried to straighten them as best I could but still keep as much boarder as possible. Obviously from the grade, or more correctly the lack there of, I took off more than Is allowed.

But like I said I was hoping to use it as an experiment with hand cuts to get an idea of what was required. The next batch will be much straighter and with more boarder.

wrestlingcardking

I have cut almost all of my 1973 wrestling annual set and have probably got around 50 gem mint grades on hand cut items and would not cut with the type of equipment pictured in the first post.

Arsenal83

I've seen the ones wrestlingcardking has posted and I'd listen to him.

georgebailey2

@wrestlingcardking said:
I have cut almost all of my 1973 wrestling annual set and have probably got around 50 gem mint grades on hand cut items and would not cut with the type of equipment pictured in the first post.

Which begs the question: What type of equipment would you use for hand cut items?

RipublicaninMass

There is some type of roller cutter I know a few used and I recieved psa 9s

miwlvrn

I've used the sliding type (as opposed to the chopping style in the OP) on recommendation from prior threads on this topic, and despite the blade being very sharp I have had mixed results. The sliders cut a nice straight line but also can leave a ridge feeling on the back/underside of the cut edge location such that if you run your finger across the surface, it feels like the edge is slightly thicker than before it was cut. Depending on the original thickness of your item, this can sometimes press itself back down while in a card saver and ends up OK, and sometimes it remains detectable. For those items, it has been sort of a toss up based on luck of the draw with grader, I think; some of them come back midgrade and some as very high, and with the assumption that the cut was as good on the mids as on the highs, my guess is that there is room for some subjectivity on the part of the grader as far as if the minor ridge differential after the cut detracts from the otherwise assigned grade or not.

wrestlingcardking

Yes, I bought a quality slider type cutter that I personally have good experience with. I am traveling so it is difficult to be thorough in my response. The chop down cutter scares me a bit but I am sure that it can be done that way. I have no reason to change my method at this time but always read the boards to hear what others are doing. Good luck.

ugaskidawg

I use a straight edge and super sharp X-Acto knife. I've had results all over, but mainly the lower grades are due to things that have nothing to do with the cut (already stained card, PDs, wrinkle, etc.)

LOTSOS

The Holidays came and went and I finally am getting my next sub ready to send in this week after two more cards arrive. In the mean time I started cutting the 1985 Perreaults box bottoms. After lots and lots of trimming attempts on old commons I decided that the only way to keep my cuts straight and square was with a razor blade and metal straight edge as some of you reccomended. I'm very happy with how they turned out. They measure just a hair and I mean a hair ove 3 1/2 "X 2 1/2" and present pretty well. I was actually able to keep the Lemieux on the Topps to the proper dimensions as well and will send it in too.

I still have the "74 Lipton Perreault to cut but I'm a little more reluctant to cut it until I can see some higher grade examples. I emailed one of the 2 guys on the Registry to see if they'd be willing to send some scans and measurements for their higher graded examples. Anyway here ar the picks of the '85 Topps.

Arsenal83

Looks great so far. Are these topps or opc?

LOTSOS

The ones above are Topps. This one is OPC. The Mario has a wrinkle so it won't be going in.
This OPC has a little surface issue just under the logo on the right but I need a graded copy for the registry till I can find a real nice copy.

Arsenal83

Damn that surface mark..other than that it looks great!

LOTSOS

I said screw it and googled some of the Liptons and cut that one too. This one seems to have more leeway since they are much smaller than a standard card. As cut this one measures 1 3/8" X 3 1/4".