Palestine Mandate 1931 100 Mils back from grading - GTG

atom

Submitted this key coin for PCGS grading - guess the grade!

coffeyce

I know nothing about these but ill guess MS65

Rexford

MS62

Tookybandit

Very nice! How about 64+

Zohar

I would say 62. If this is a 64-65, its the finest known and probably worth $50K.

atom

Zohar is definitely knowledgeable about this series; will wait for some more guesses before posting the actual grade!

amwldcoin

I'm going with 58 or 62. Not an easy coin to access from a picture!

marcmoish

Wow nice piece - I never saw this one.
Looks 63 from here as it seems nicer than the one I sold in 2014 that graded 62.
If the EA, luster, toning and all is NOT as I am imagining then its a 62 imho...especially if the toning is covering any chatter that is not visible...might even be lower.

Whatever it is you got yourself a really cool newp!

7Jaguars

Wow, 58, this is a tough crowd. I would say "64", and maybe even 5. Leaf details look very good, and one nice place to look IMO is the rims - these are very clean as well with only one small ding that isn't really even enough to qualify. I see only the mildest of field contacts. I would be surprised at anything less than a 4.

Stork

The zoom-o-matic feature of the photos makes it look like there may be a bit of chatter under the toning. Hard to say from photos (and from a position of total unfamiliarity with these), but I would guess 62-63, and maybe a bonus for the toning if it's pretty in hand.

marcmoish

@Zohar said:
I would say 62. If this is a 64-65, its the finest known and probably worth $50K.

agreed if its a 64-65 - oh hell yes!!!!!

asheland

MS63

atom

@7Jaguars said:
Wow, 58, this is a tough crowd. I would say "64", and maybe even 5. Leaf details look very good, and one nice place to look IMO is the rims - these are very clean as well with only one small ding that isn't really even enough to qualify. I see only the mildest of field contacts. I would be surprised at anything less than a 4.

Tough crowd is right!

Thank you all for your input. Now for the result:

In fact it is 58, and the sharp details of the devices and denticles would indicate its true quality. There are some very light marks in the field, perhaps not as visible under the mottled toning in the image. I believe a MS62 is the appropriate grade for the type. The coin is without question an exceptional rarity in this condition, and has strong eye appeal.

Question now is whether to re-submit!

Stork

Well, just looking at pictures is tough, but it looks more like a 62/63 than a 58 to someone who is completely unfamiliar with the type. Is it a series that ATS would have more experience with? In any case there is little downside to cracking and sending back. I can't imagine it would go lower.

coinkat

Great looking coin. From the image, looks as if an in hand review is truly required to offer thoughts on this one. What a terrific looking ezxample and rarely seen with that look.

I like that term zoom-o-matic... has that sound of name that should have been used by Nash, Studebaker or Hudson for their automatic transmissions.

Seriously... Is that photo thing really called zoom-o-matic? It is a very cool feature especially for those of us who remain left behind in this new age of technology.

Zohar

In fact it is 58, and the sharp details of the devices and denticles would indicate its true quality. There are some very light marks in the field, perhaps not as visible under the mottled toning in the image. I believe a MS62 is the appropriate grade for the type. The coin is without question an exceptional rarity in this condition, and has strong eye appeal.

Question now is whether to re-submit!

You have the coin in hand to make that judgment. My guess is that there is some chatter on the obverse which drives the grade down. Reverse is better than 58.

Stork

@coinkat said:
Great looking coin. From the image, looks as if an in hand review is truly required to offer thoughts on this one. What a terrific looking ezxample and rarely seen with that look.

I like that term zoom-o-matic... has that sound of name that should have been used by Nash, Studebaker or Hudson for their automatic transmissions.

Seriously... Is that photo thing really called zoom-o-matic? It is a very cool feature especially for those of us who remain left behind in this new age of technology.

Nope, just made it up for that pinching/zoom feature with the tablet or touchpad on the laptop.
Or, if you click on the photo a full size one will open in a new tab.

Lovely coin regardless of grade!

pruebas

@atom said:

@7Jaguars said:
Wow, 58, this is a tough crowd. I would say "64", and maybe even 5. Leaf details look very good, and one nice place to look IMO is the rims - these are very clean as well with only one small ding that isn't really even enough to qualify. I see only the mildest of field contacts. I would be surprised at anything less than a 4.

Tough crowd is right!

Thank you all for your input. Now for the result:

In fact it is 58, and the sharp details of the devices and denticles would indicate its true quality. There are some very light marks in the field, perhaps not as visible under the mottled toning in the image. I believe a MS62 is the appropriate grade for the type. The coin is without question an exceptional rarity in this condition, and has strong eye appeal.

Question now is whether to re-submit!

Don't resubmit now. PCGS has been absolutely brutal lately.

marcmoish

This here below is the present finest known (MS63), and the collector has it for 10 years now or about that. I actually owned it 30 yrs ago, and sold it to its previous owner. You can compare this example for reference. The example I sold (can't seem to link it..anyone?) in 2014 was graded MS62 and that's another beauty to compare to with.
Obviously not seeing this one in hand - I remain with my comments re grade, and agree PCGS seems to have been harsh here.

atom

@marcmoish said:
This here below is the present finest known (MS63), and the collector has it for 10 years now or about that. I actually owned it 30 yrs ago, and sold it to its previous owner. You can compare this example for reference. The example I sold (can't seem to link it..anyone?) in 2014 was graded MS62 and that's another beauty to compare to with.
Obviously not seeing this one in hand - I remain with my comments re grade, and agree PCGS seems to have been harsh here.

Based on the consensus here I will likely resubmit, the coin is definitely undergraded. Thanks for posting your image for comparison!

atom

@pruebas said:

@atom said:

@7Jaguars said:
Wow, 58, this is a tough crowd. I would say "64", and maybe even 5. Leaf details look very good, and one nice place to look IMO is the rims - these are very clean as well with only one small ding that isn't really even enough to qualify. I see only the mildest of field contacts. I would be surprised at anything less than a 4.

Tough crowd is right!

Thank you all for your input. Now for the result:

In fact it is 58, and the sharp details of the devices and denticles would indicate its true quality. There are some very light marks in the field, perhaps not as visible under the mottled toning in the image. I believe a MS62 is the appropriate grade for the type. The coin is without question an exceptional rarity in this condition, and has strong eye appeal.

Question now is whether to re-submit!

Don't resubmit now. PCGS has been absolutely brutal lately.

I appreciate your suggestion

Zohar

Here is marcmoish's specimen sold in 2014

atom

Zohar, thanks for posting

Based on marcmoish's 2014 specimen image,I am confident that my coin will regrade higher. My coin has complete inner circle and numerals of denomination are without the dings visible on marcmoish's posted coin. The leaves also appear to show some weakness or light wear as compared to my coin.

Will have to promote!

Zohar

One compared with the other

atom

Zohar,
Kudos to you! The side by side image comparison makes it so easy especially with zoom to inspect and compare areas.

Of course the PCGS graders haven't spent this much time and effort, but the assigned grades are too far apart.

The guesses of all those who posted, and appreciated! clearly supports the notion that a higher grade should have been awarded.

Based on images, I prefer my coin regardless; another example of buy the coin, not the slab!

atom

@Zohar said:
Here is marcmoish's specimen sold in 2014

Zohar,

Can I assume that you purchased/own this coin from marcmoish in 2014 since you posted the image?

Zohar

No - marcmoish a forum member is The premier expert on the series and sold his entire collection on a heritage session in 2014. The image is taken from there. Have a look at his collection which Is all there.

atom

At $28,200 a record price for a such a beautiful high grade coin. The keys and highest grades of all denominations continue to bring stronger prices...

Zohar

Many have come out since expanding pop reports...

atom

Of course
The true rarities will stand out from the crowd as the total submitted count increases

Zohar

@atom said:
Of course
The true rarities will stand out from the crowd as the total submitted count increases

Depends how you look at it - look at the pop report... when marc sold his collection, it was almost entirely to-pop. Suddenly MS-65-67s come out....

https://ngccoin.com/census/world/palestine-british-mandate/sc-391/10m/?c=304588

marcmoish

Atom how long are you collecting this series might I ask? Do you have them online or in a TPG registry?

Zohar - that's correct re the POP's as it seems that sale in 2014 brought out every single hidden MS example thereafter, and more have been graded since by both services.
Seems everyone wanted to join the fun, reap the benefits - I've never seen such strong prices for almost every piece that was sold.
The rare dates are still rare in MS period. It's like a '16-D Mercury Dime will always command it's premium no matter that so many have been graded - just a weak attempt for comparison purposes.
However, looking at 1927, the first date of the series, it seems with the large mintage's more then just a few pieces have been hoarded away - I was also surprised to see those pops. Regardless, 1927 is the most common date in all denominations except the silver but still used to be quite scarce in high MS grades. That is no longer the case.
My '27 10 Mil in MS66 sold for $793 . But at that time it was one of 6 pcs known and finest graded at 66. Looking at your chart I see 60 pcs graded in 66, and a whopping 19pcs in 67!

@Zohar said:
No - marcmoish a forum member is The premier expert on the series and sold his entire collection on a heritage session in 2014. The image is taken from there. Have a look at his collection which Is all there.

thanks - but I wish I could have stayed in the game longer
If I recall you jumped ship a few years before me after giving up due to the scarcity and rarity of finding better MS examples, and defecting to Talers

Zohar

@marcmoish said:
Atom how long are you collecting this series might I ask? Do you have them online or in a TPG registry?

Zohar - that's correct re the POP's as it seems that sale in 2014 brought out every single hidden MS example thereafter, and more have been graded since by both services.
Seems everyone wanted to join the fun, reap the benefits - I've never seen such strong prices for almost every piece that was sold.
The rare dates are still rare in MS period. It's like a '16-D Mercury Dime will always command it's premium no matter that so many have been graded - just a weak attempt for comparison purposes.
However, looking at 1927, the first date of the series, it seems with the large mintage's more then just a few pieces have been hoarded away - I was also surprised to see those pops. Regardless, 1927 is the most common date in all denominations except the silver but still used to be quite scarce in high MS grades. That is no longer the case.
My '27 10 Mil in MS66 sold for $793 . But at that time it was one of 6 pcs known and finest graded at 66. Looking at your chart I see 60 pcs graded in 66, and a whopping 19pcs in 67!

@Zohar said:
No - marcmoish a forum member is The premier expert on the series and sold his entire collection on a heritage session in 2014. The image is taken from there. Have a look at his collection which Is all there.

thanks - but I wish I could have stayed in the game longer
If I recall you jumped ship a few years before me after giving up due to the scarcity and rarity of finding better MS examples, and defecting to Talers

Yes - working on a series presents a different path of collecting and lots of patience... which I lack!

atom

@marcmoish said:

My '27 10 Mil in MS66 sold for $793 . But at that time it was one of 6 pcs known and finest graded at 66. Looking at your chart I see 60 pcs graded in 66, and a whopping 19pcs in 67!

Exactly my point about the true rarities stand out from the crowd as the total submitted count increases

Zohar

@atom said:

@marcmoish said:

My '27 10 Mil in MS66 sold for $793 . But at that time it was one of 6 pcs known and finest graded at 66. Looking at your chart I see 60 pcs graded in 66, and a whopping 19pcs in 67!

Exactly my point about the true rarities stand out from the crowd as the total submitted count increases

Respectfully... if in 2014 top pop was MS-66 with 6 graded and now there are 60 with 19 in 67...how do you know what a "true rarity" is.... we may learn that there is a hoard of 1931 that was kept and will only now make its way into slabs. We are talking about 20th century coinage after all.

atom

@Zohar said:

@atom said:

@marcmoish said:

My '27 10 Mil in MS66 sold for $793 . But at that time it was one of 6 pcs known and finest graded at 66. Looking at your chart I see 60 pcs graded in 66, and a whopping 19pcs in 67!

Exactly my point about the true rarities stand out from the crowd as the total submitted count increases

Respectfully... if in 2014 top pop was MS-66 with 6 graded and now there are 60 with 19 in 67...how do you know what a "true rarity" is.... we may learn that there is a hoard of 1931 that was kept and will only now make its way into slabs. We are talking about 20th century coinage after all.

Excellent question

Looking at all the 1927 denominations you will see the abundance of high graded coins submitted. Since it was the first year of the Mandate, struck by the British (instantly popular for commonwealth collectors) for a region with a history of centuries of different ruling countries and their respective coinage, undoubtedly hoards were put aside in the first year. Now study all other years and although some had high mintages, the market has in the last 70 years not seen uncirculated issues available in quantity. I emphasize 70 years, even though the coins were issued during the 20 years prior, but once the Mandate expired, the coins became collectible, no longer currency.

To your question, is it possible that a hoard of 1931 dated coins will someday appear? We cannot know, but the likelihood suggests nearly impossible. Who has the patience to wait this amount of time and not take advantage of releasing onto the market even sporadically a few gems for a date that historically has been strong. In fact, the sister key date, 1934 dated 100 Mils is equally difficult to come by in superb condition. Don't forget the 1931 dated issues were for just 2 denominations: 50 & 100 Mils. No other date appears in just 2 denominations. Could a hoard be discovered of Judaea Capta gold aureus or even the "common" silver denarius in mint state, which were issued in large numbers to commemorate a difficult Roman war against the Jews 2000 years ago? Also highly unlikely!

Let's not forget that the Palestine Mandate coinage were real coins which circulated. We're not discussing modern 20th century coins that didn't circulate, where you'd be absolutely correct. The Israel 1963 Seafarer you picked up in high grade cameo, which is a real beauty, is a perfect example. The price on this coin was at its peak $1200+ when the mintages weren't that much different from the other 5 Lirot anniversary coins in the series. Jonah Shapiro in the early days of Israel's commemorative market held onto a large quantity he acquired as a dealer and controlled the pricing for years.

This isn't happening with Palestine Mandate coins. I believe so because I've been scouring the globe for these coins for 40 years. The true rarities are in fact those dates/denominations that proportionally do not appear relative to the 1927 issues.

Now for the kicker: The 1931 100 Mils pictured at the top of this thread was just recently submitted, after owning it for 4 decades. I salvaged it from a group of silver coins destined to be melted at Deak-Perera in the mid-1970's.

Zohar

atom - thanks for the elaborate and informative write up. This is one tough series to pursue in higher grades. I have a set of high grade Israel early statehood 25 Mils-Prutah which I am breaking up, except the 1948 25 Mils. Do you have your set posted online?

atom

@Zohar said:
atom - thanks for the elaborate and informative write up. This is one tough series to pursue in higher grades. I have a set of high grade Israel early statehood 25 Mils-Prutah which I am breaking up, except the 1948 25 Mils. Do you have your set posted online?

I saw your set offering on the BST board, as well as on eBay. Oddly these coins were never popularly collected, it's such an interesting series given the early years of the state, in designs, shapes, and metals. Of course the 1948 25 Mils and the 100 Pruta Utrecht Die make it more appealing!

I haven't yet posted my set online. You may lack patience, I suffer from perfectionism.

7Jaguars

I liked the comparo photos also. If you'll notice the OP coin has better edges, the "100" without the blemish on the compared bit as well as the circle surrounding it - I would think those rather key points . The plant (what type is it?) also appears better struck. The toning may be a bit dark but I don't see a lot of chatter.

atom

@7Jaguars said:
I liked the comparo photos also. If you'll notice the OP coin has better edges, the "100" without the blemish on the compared bit as well as the circle surrounding it - I would think those rather key points . The plant (what type is it?) also appears better struck. The toning may be a bit dark but I don't see a lot of chatter.

Olive sapling, and I fully agree!

yigal

wow, very nice example, one of the coins that miss in my palestime coin collection (im collecting only unc condition). very hard to find.

desslok

@7Jaguars said:
The plant (what type is it?) also appears better struck. The toning may be a bit dark but I don't see a lot of chatter.

The plant is an olive branch, with several olives attached to it. Olives are common to the area and have been grown since biblical times.

LochNESS

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread here today in catch-up mode. I must say, for what opinions are worth, I think the side-by-side comparison shows that the fields carry more 'weight' in the grading than perhaps we want them to carry. Clear fields and brighter tone won the higher grade. I think. Both are beautiful coins which I'd be happy to have in my collection any day. Kudos!

atom

@LochNESS said:
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread here today in catch-up mode. I must say, for what opinions are worth, I think the side-by-side comparison shows that the fields carry more 'weight' in the grading than perhaps we want them to carry. Clear fields and brighter tone won the higher grade. I think. Both are beautiful coins which I'd be happy to have in my collection any day. Kudos!

I have little doubt that both coins would likely grade equally or closer to each other if viewed by a grader at the same time.

amwldcoin

So did you ever resubmit the coin?

atom

Not yet

marcmoish

A 3rd example seems to have been graded MS62 by our hosts. This example seems to be coming up in a Sept HA sale...no pic posted yet.

atom

Photo appearing now

marcmoish

It went unsold.

Not totally surprised but still....reserve was 20K.