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Scary Ebay situation with no recourse
doog71
Posts: 405 ✭✭
So let's say you're selling a rookie card of a guy that gets super "hot". You sell the card at the top of the market.
You send the card, the buyer doesn't say anything. 10 days later, after the "hot" rookie has a cold spell and his card is selling for half of what it was at the top of the market, the buyer decides there's something he doesn't like about the card and demands a refund. Of course, Ebay always sides with the buyer, so the seller is poop outta luck.
It's a great situation for an unethical buyer. They can wait to see if the card does more then sell it if so. If it goes down, he gets his money back.
Has this ever happened to anyone?
You send the card, the buyer doesn't say anything. 10 days later, after the "hot" rookie has a cold spell and his card is selling for half of what it was at the top of the market, the buyer decides there's something he doesn't like about the card and demands a refund. Of course, Ebay always sides with the buyer, so the seller is poop outta luck.
It's a great situation for an unethical buyer. They can wait to see if the card does more then sell it if so. If it goes down, he gets his money back.
Has this ever happened to anyone?
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I sold several Fleer PSA 10 Jordan's (non rookie) at the top of the market. I sweated the 30 days until all of them stuck. I had one buyer 10 days after buying one of the cards ask for a return. I allowed the return but then he never sent it back. Followed up through eBay and they sided with me. I was lucky but it is a very slippery slope when eBay demands no questions asked returns when the market shifts on "Hot" cards
So do buyers have 30 days to return or 6 months?
They have up to 6 months to return it through PayPal. Sucks, but that's the cost of doing business on the huge market of the internet.
They have up to 6 months to return it through PayPal. Sucks, but that's the cost of doing business on the huge market of the internet.
In Wall Street they call that a "free-look". Can you imagine if you could buy a stock and wait 6 months to decide to keep it or return it.
Let's face it, every seller on E-bay is a whore, advertising their product to the world, so they can get the best price. Sometimes you get to date a really good looking buyer; sometimes you get sloppy seconds.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Still looking for that venue where sellers do not seek to get the best price possible and buyers can name their price :-)
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
They have up to 6 months to return it through PayPal. Sucks, but that's the cost of doing business on the huge market of the internet.
In Wall Street they call that a "free-look". Can you imagine if you could buy a stock and wait 6 months to decide to keep it or return it.
Let's face it, every seller on E-bay is a whore, advertising their product to the world, so they can get the best price. Sometimes you get to date a really good looking buyer; sometimes you get sloppy seconds.
The summer of my sophomore year in college, I worked in a resort hotel in Atlantic Beach.
The owner - said the same thing about wait staff - "they'd give the place away for a tip"
Sure glad I was in good company.
They have up to 6 months to return it through PayPal. Sucks, but that's the cost of doing business on the huge market of the internet.
In Wall Street they call that a "free-look". Can you imagine if you could buy a stock and wait 6 months to decide to keep it or return it.
Let's face it, every seller on E-bay is a whore, advertising their product to the world, so they can get the best price. Sometimes you get to date a really good looking buyer; sometimes you get sloppy seconds.
The summer of my sophomore year in college, I worked in a resort hotel in Atlantic Beach.
The owner - said the same thing about wait staff - "they'd give the place away for a tip"
Sure glad I was in good company.
Mike, I was getting worried when I first started reading your post there, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
They have up to 6 months to return it through PayPal. Sucks, but that's the cost of doing business on the huge market of the internet.
In Wall Street they call that a "free-look". Can you imagine if you could buy a stock and wait 6 months to decide to keep it or return it.
Let's face it, every seller on E-bay is a whore, advertising their product to the world, so they can get the best price. Sometimes you get to date a really good looking buyer; sometimes you get sloppy seconds.
The summer of my sophomore year in college, I worked in a resort hotel in Atlantic Beach.
The owner - said the same thing about wait staff - "they'd give the place away for a tip"
Sure glad I was in good company.
Mike, I was getting worried when I first started reading your post there, LOL..
Me too. I thought Mike was going to tell how he hooked up in Atlantic Beach
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
I sold several Fleer PSA 10 Jordan's (non rookie) at the top of the market. I sweated the 30 days until all of them stuck. I had one buyer 10 days after buying one of the cards ask for a return. I allowed the return but then he never sent it back. Followed up through eBay and they sided with me. I was lucky but it is a very slippery slope when eBay demands no questions asked returns when the market shifts on "Hot" cards
Had several 'non-paying' bidders during the "hot" timeframe and one return for the same non-rookie Jordan's.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
I sold several Fleer PSA 10 Jordan's (non rookie) at the top of the market. I sweated the 30 days until all of them stuck. I had one buyer 10 days after buying one of the cards ask for a return. I allowed the return but then he never sent it back. Followed up through eBay and they sided with me. I was lucky but it is a very slippery slope when eBay demands no questions asked returns when the market shifts on "Hot" cards
Had several 'non-paying' bidders during the "hot" timeframe and one return for the same non-rookie Jordan's.
I had one NPB, but one of,the under bidders bought it off eBay and was happy. No reason to return 10s if packaged well, but it is hard to explain that to eBay
Let's face it, every seller on E-bay is a whore, advertising their product to the world, so they can get the best price.
Does that mean Probstein is a pimp?
a) whatever return policy you create through eBay (you can set how many days this is when listing your item
b) 30 days to issue a SNAD complaint through eBay - you do not have an option to change this. note that SNAD is not the same as a return, but that they way eBay works the buyer basically always wins, so it's really no different than a return
c) 180 days to issue a SNAD complaint through PayPal - you do not have an option to change this. Ditto with what I said about eBay/who wins in these cases.
Buyers have:
a) whatever return policy you create through eBay (you can set how many days this is when listing your item
b) 30 days to issue a SNAD complaint through eBay - you do not have an option to change this. note that SNAD is not the same as a return, but that they way eBay works the buyer basically always wins, so it's really no different than a return
c) 180 days to issue a SNAD complaint through PayPal - you do not have an option to change this. Ditto with what I said about eBay/who wins in these cases.
I believe all this. I just can't understand ebay's rationale when the item is clearly as described.
If the auction just says "PSA 9" and an undamaged PSA 9 is delivered...how can the item possibly not be as described?
Buyers have:
a) whatever return policy you create through eBay (you can set how many days this is when listing your item
b) 30 days to issue a SNAD complaint through eBay - you do not have an option to change this. note that SNAD is not the same as a return, but that they way eBay works the buyer basically always wins, so it's really no different than a return
c) 180 days to issue a SNAD complaint through PayPal - you do not have an option to change this. Ditto with what I said about eBay/who wins in these cases.
I believe all this. I just can't understand ebay's rationale when the item is clearly as described.
If the auction just says "PSA 9" and an undamaged PSA 9 is delivered...how can the item possibly not be as described?
Unless the holder is compromised or damaged, there should never be a return option for PSA graded cards. If the buyer has an issue with graded cards they should either take it up with PSA or not buy graded cards. I realize that is not how things work, but that is how they should work.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Buyers have:
a) whatever return policy you create through eBay (you can set how many days this is when listing your item
b) 30 days to issue a SNAD complaint through eBay - you do not have an option to change this. note that SNAD is not the same as a return, but that they way eBay works the buyer basically always wins, so it's really no different than a return
c) 180 days to issue a SNAD complaint through PayPal - you do not have an option to change this. Ditto with what I said about eBay/who wins in these cases.
I believe all this. I just can't understand ebay's rationale when the item is clearly as described.
If the auction just says "PSA 9" and an undamaged PSA 9 is delivered...how can the item possibly not be as described?
Unless the holder is compromised or damaged, there should never be a return option for PSA graded cards. If the buyer has an issue with graded cards they should either take it up with PSA or not buy graded cards. I realize that is not how things work, but that is how they should work.
Question from a non-seller.
I have seen on some auctions where they state: "No Returns on graded cards"
Does Paypal say no to that and make ya take returns on graded?
Buyers have:
a) whatever return policy you create through eBay (you can set how many days this is when listing your item
b) 30 days to issue a SNAD complaint through eBay - you do not have an option to change this. note that SNAD is not the same as a return, but that they way eBay works the buyer basically always wins, so it's really no different than a return
c) 180 days to issue a SNAD complaint through PayPal - you do not have an option to change this. Ditto with what I said about eBay/who wins in these cases.
I believe all this. I just can't understand ebay's rationale when the item is clearly as described.
If the auction just says "PSA 9" and an undamaged PSA 9 is delivered...how can the item possibly not be as described?
Unless the holder is compromised or damaged, there should never be a return option for PSA graded cards. If the buyer has an issue with graded cards they should either take it up with PSA or not buy graded cards. I realize that is not how things work, but that is how they should work.
Question from a non-seller.
I have seen on some auctions where they state: "No Returns on graded cards"
Does Paypal say no to that and make ya take returns on graded?
Ebay pretty much allows a buyer to return an item for any concocted reason. A seller's return policy does not trump SNAD claim.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
SNAD is different than a return. Both eBay and PP only allow returns when the seller opts to allow it. They always allow SNAD claims, even when the seller does not offer returns, and almost always side with the buyer.
That was my point. Buyers will simply claim SNAD as a way around the no return policy.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The rationale for returning a graded card is when there is misrepresentation in a listing, either intentionally by the seller or unintentionally through the pictures.
We all know that it is not true that "a PSA 9 is a PSA 9" and there are is significant variation within the grade or cards that are holdered as 9s that would be downgraded if PSA ever got the second chance to look at them. If that flaw is visible to the buyer at the time of purchase, a return/SNAD case does not seem to be in order. However, if not, as sometimes scans make it difficult to see or entirely hide certain issues, I can understand why someone would want a return in that instance.
There was more I wanted to say but the forum software wouldn't let me post it from my phone due to some sort of security warning?
The rationale for returning a graded card is when there is misrepresentation in a listing, either intentionally by the seller or unintentionally through the pictures.
We all know that it is not true that "a PSA 9 is a PSA 9" and there are is significant variation within the grade or cards that are holdered as 9s that would be downgraded if PSA ever got the second chance to look at them. If that flaw is visible to the buyer at the time of purchase, a return/SNAD case does not seem to be in order. However, if not, as sometimes scans make it difficult to see or entirely hide certain issues, I can understand why someone would want a return in that instance.
Good points by all. There could be instances where poor quality pictures or intentionally deceptive photos will hide blemishes. We have all seen it. 6 months is just far too long for anything frankly, but especially graded cards where there is less likely to be significant variation in quality from same grade to same grade. I can hear the snickers
Today he files a return through Ebay saying he didn't like the condition of the card and he wanted a full refund.
The problem? I hadn't even shipped him the card yet.
I've been selling on eBay since January 2000 and I can honestly say, this is the first time I've ever had to do a return for something other than "damaged by the PO"... which has happened twice in almost 17 years.
About a week ago, I had an autographed prospect variation card, numbered to 25, listed for $300 OBO. I received multiple offers on it in the first couple of hours after listing... and one of the interested buyers also sent me a direct message thru eBay. Before taking any action on any of the offers received, I replied to the message. My reply started a back and forth negotiation and we ultimately settled on a price... a price based on the fact that it was the players base card, and not one of the set's insert cards that were also autographed and numbered to 25 (he was referencing recent sales, but they were for the insert card(s), not the base card). This was discussed, in detail, in the messages exchanged. We agreed on $180 shipped... I submitted the counteroffer... he accepted and paid right away. I shipped the card out the next morning.
This morning, I receive a return request through eBay. The Reason: he bought this card in error. He didn't know it was the base card, when what he really wanted was a specific insert card from that set!
I'm guessing the real reason is that a simple search of recent sales for this particular player shows that an auction for the same base card numbered to 25 ended approximately 30 hours ago for $102 + $2.99 shipping... no need to guess who won that auction!!!
Of course, I will have no recourse but to accept the return and move on. However, user kenben1977 will be going on my blocked bidder list. I've gone almost 17 years without being able to say I've encountered a truly dishonest buyer on eBay... well, until today!
In response to the OP... it finally happened to me this morning!
I've been selling on eBay since January 2000 and I can honestly say, this is the first time I've ever had to do a return for something other than "damaged by the PO"... which has happened twice in almost 17 years.
About a week ago, I had an autographed prospect variation card, numbered to 25, listed for $300 OBO. I received multiple offers on it in the first couple of hours after listing... and one of the interested buyers also sent me a direct message thru eBay. Before taking any action on any of the offers received, I replied to the message. My reply started a back and forth negotiation and we ultimately settled on a price... a price based on the fact that it was the players base card, and not one of the set's insert cards that were also autographed and numbered to 25 (he was referencing recent sales, but they were for the insert card(s), not the base card). This was discussed, in detail, in the messages exchanged. We agreed on $180 shipped... I submitted the counteroffer... he accepted and paid right away. I shipped the card out the next morning.
This morning, I receive a return request through eBay. The Reason: he bought this card in error. He didn't know it was the base card, when what he really wanted was a specific insert card from that set!
I'm guessing the real reason is that a simple search of recent sales for this particular player shows that an auction for the same base card numbered to 25 ended approximately 30 hours ago for $102 + $2.99 shipping... no need to guess who won that auction!!!
Of course, I will have no recourse but to accept the return and move on. However, user kenben1977 will be going on my blocked bidder list. I've gone almost 17 years without being able to say I've encountered a truly dishonest buyer on eBay... well, until today!
Buying in error is his fault, not yours. He keeps card, and pays you another $20 to make it an even $200 for having to deal with his stupidity.
In response to the OP... it finally happened to me this morning!
I've been selling on eBay since January 2000 and I can honestly say, this is the first time I've ever had to do a return for something other than "damaged by the PO"... which has happened twice in almost 17 years.
About a week ago, I had an autographed prospect variation card, numbered to 25, listed for $300 OBO. I received multiple offers on it in the first couple of hours after listing... and one of the interested buyers also sent me a direct message thru eBay. Before taking any action on any of the offers received, I replied to the message. My reply started a back and forth negotiation and we ultimately settled on a price... a price based on the fact that it was the players base card, and not one of the set's insert cards that were also autographed and numbered to 25 (he was referencing recent sales, but they were for the insert card(s), not the base card). This was discussed, in detail, in the messages exchanged. We agreed on $180 shipped... I submitted the counteroffer... he accepted and paid right away. I shipped the card out the next morning.
This morning, I receive a return request through eBay. The Reason: he bought this card in error. He didn't know it was the base card, when what he really wanted was a specific insert card from that set!
I'm guessing the real reason is that a simple search of recent sales for this particular player shows that an auction for the same base card numbered to 25 ended approximately 30 hours ago for $102 + $2.99 shipping... no need to guess who won that auction!!!
Of course, I will have no recourse but to accept the return and move on. However, user kenben1977 will be going on my blocked bidder list. I've gone almost 17 years without being able to say I've encountered a truly dishonest buyer on eBay... well, until today!
Blocked. Thanks for the tip. PM me if you want a copy of my blocked list. These are buyers who either (a) didn't pay (b) tried or successfully scammed me (c) sent nastygrams.
I already had something fishy that I feel was along these lines. Sold a $200+ particular card at what has been high end of market so far.
Today he files a return through Ebay saying he didn't like the condition of the card and he wanted a full refund.
The problem? I hadn't even shipped him the card yet.
Update on that situation - he didn't receive card from me, yet had already decided it was "not as described". I'm sure this had nothing to do with the fact that what he had paid $248 for (Gary Sanchez auto RC) had dipped down into the $160 range).
He filed the return for the card he hadn't received yet through Ebay, they "freeze" those funds in my Paypal account. I tell this person he must have the wrong seller b/c he hasn't received card from me yet. He yields and cancels refund through Ebay.
Guess what? He finally does the get the card I mailed him and sends THE EXACT SAME NOTE about why he's demanding a refund. Apparently all the copies of this card he ordered from other Ebayers "didn't match the item description". (BTW, the card I sent was mint, for whatever that's worth).
I of course agree to refund him - I have no choice.
I already had something fishy that I feel was along these lines. Sold a $200+ particular card at what has been high end of market so far.
Today he files a return through Ebay saying he didn't like the condition of the card and he wanted a full refund.
The problem? I hadn't even shipped him the card yet.
Update on that situation - he didn't receive card from me, yet had already decided it was "not as described". I'm sure this had nothing to do with the fact that what he had paid $248 for (Gary Sanchez auto RC) had dipped down into the $160 range).
He filed the return for the card he hadn't received yet through Ebay, they "freeze" those funds in my Paypal account. I tell this person he must have the wrong seller b/c he hasn't received card from me yet. He yields and cancels refund through Ebay.
Guess what? He finally does the get the card I mailed him and sends THE EXACT SAME NOTE about why he's demanding a refund. Apparently all the copies of this card he ordered from other Ebayers "didn't match the item description". (BTW, the card I sent was mint, for whatever that's worth).
I of course agree to refund him - I have no choice.
Please PM his ID so I can block him. I just sold a bunch of Dak Prescott RCs and I'm hoping he doesn't fizzle out for the next 30 days.
Absolute B.S. I remember this transaction. There was no clear discussion regarding a base vs the #d/25 version. I'd assumed all along this transaction was for listed card #d/25..... Think about your logic. The #d/25 sold at auction for $102, you had one listed at auction for $300, we agreed on $180 and somehow you thought my offer of $180 was for the base and not the #d/25 ? What were the base selling for ? $50 ? But I'd pay $180 ? Jesus that's some ass-backward thinking. I buy 100's of cards a month and have have 1000's of feedback, I know what I'm doing and wouldn't have made such a ridiculous offer. This guy seriously misrepresented his item and was pissed when I called him out on it.
During the Judge craze last year, I sold a high end card of his. I can’t say for sure this happened, but I’m almost positive the purchaser subbed the card (probably BGS 2 day) and it didn’t get the anticipated grade and he requested a refund 11 days after delIvery due to “significant corner and edge wear”. I would think, I know, silly me, one would scrutinize a high dollar purchase as soon as it was in hand. I didn’t touch the funds kind of expecting this.
Old news
Fair enough, but a friend of mine showed me this the other day and needed to set the record straight.....ridiculous claims
now that was interesting read.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Well that was five minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
Arthur
Thanx Arthur.
You save me 5 minutes and about 9.5 million synaptic excitations!
Arthur, did you really have big plans for that 5 minutes anyhow??
Wowsa! Definitely blocking, although looking at his recent purchases he'd probably never buy anything from me... that's one prospect buying machine!
How great is it that this guy signed up just to try to clear his name 18+ months after the facts.
He’s going to need to sign up for a blowout account too.
I'd like to hear epatmythes response to this post. Oh wait.....
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph