what is your starting rotation from the 1970's?

craig44

Got to thinking about all the great pitchers from the decade of the 1970's and thought it might be fun to hash out the best starting four. Ill start. how about

Tom seaver

Steve carlton

Jim Palmer

And a wild card,

Bert blyleven.



What do you think?

ymarea

Tom Seaver
Jim Palmer
Andy Messersmith
Ron Guidry

Justacommeman

I could be behind



Seaver

Carlton

Palmer

Blyleven



mark

garnettstyle

Blyleven
Palmer
Ryan
Seaver

SDSportsFan

I'd go with:



Ryan

Palmer

Carlton

Seaver

Niekro (with all the heat from the first four, Knucksie would totally F up the batters on his turn





Steve

PSASAP

Seaver
Carlton
Palmer
Vida Blue
Ryan

travis t

Ryan

Seaver

Sutton

Carlton

PM770

No JR Richard love?

dallasactuary

Palmer and Seaver are locks - easily the top two from 1970-1979.

The other candidates are Niekro, Perry, Jenkins, Carlton and Blyleven. The drop-off from that group down to the next group (Sutton, Ryan, Hunter, Blue, Tiant) is large. If you named or thought of anyone I haven't named you're either remembering them wrong, or you're ignoring that they didn't pitch enough years in the 70's. Choose Ron Guidry for your rotation and you're going to lose an awful lot of games until he's finally on the mound in 1977. Andy Messersmith was a fine pitcher, but come 1977 you're going to wish you had chosen someone else.


A breakdown of awesome, great, good, fair and bad seasons ("bad" seasons include injuries):

Niekro: 0, 2, 5, 2, 1
Carlton: 1, 0, 3, 3, 3
Perry: 1, 1, 3, 5, 0
Jenkins: 1, 0, 4, 5, 0
Blyleven: 0, 1, 5, 2, 2

It looks clear to me that Carlton and Blyleven are out of the running, and that Jenkins is the next to go.

So, in order:

Palmer
Seaver
Perry
Niekro
Jenkins (if 5-man)


Side note: if you switch the period from 1970-1979 to 1972-1981 the pitchers in contention remain essentially the same but the order changes dramatically; Carlton moves to #1, and by a fair margin.

PM770

Ah yes. Fergie Jenkins. Jenkins is one of the most under-appreciated great pitchers of all-time. Somehow he always seems to fly under the radar and shouldn't.

ymarea

"Choose Ron Guidry for your rotation and you're going to lose an awful lot of games until he's finally on the mound in 1977. Andy Messersmith was a fine pitcher, but come 1977 you're going to wish you had chosen someone else."

I don't recall the op including the condition that the pitcher must have started every season in the decade. Guidry and Messersmith each pitched for a significant amount of time (Guidry 3 full seasons, all of which were better than good) in the 1970's and were as effective or more effective than just about anyone else.

Stats notwithstanding, they remain my choices and I would be confident pitting them head-to-head against anyone in the decade.

craig44

I don't know Dallas. Blyleven had a better era, era+, fewer walks, more shutouts, better FIP and more strikeouts than both Perry and niekro for the 1970's. I take blyleven over those two for sure.

craig44

Ymarea, I was looking for the best starting four for the 1970's. As if you were general manager and got to sign four pitchers for your team for the decade. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Dallas would be right. You would miss a lot of years waiting for guidry to come along.

craig44

Bert also did better in all of those stats than fergie did for the decade. Don't get blinded by win totals. I still think bert comes out as the number 4 starter

dallasactuary

Originally posted by: craig44
I don't know Dallas. Blyleven had a better era, era+, fewer walks, more shutouts, better FIP and more strikeouts than both Perry and niekro for the 1970's. I take blyleven over those two for sure.

If you leave out Palmer or Seaver, I'll tell you that you're wrong; if you pick anyone outside of the pitchers I listed as candidates, I'll tell you that you're wrong. But if you substitute Blyleven or Carlton for Perry, Niekro or Jenkins - I'll just tell you that I disagree.

Mostly where Blyleven falls short of Niekro and Perry is in IP - about a full season less over the course of the decade. Other than that, what distinguishes any one from the other is in the eye of the beholder. Niekro, for example, was a pretty decent hitter as pitchers go; that doesn't count for a ton, but in deciding which of three comparable HOF pitchers to choose, it counts for something.

If I were choosing between Blyleven and Niekro I'd pick Niekro; if you forced me to take Blyleven I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

craig44

No, I certainly wouldn't leave out seaver and Palmer, just stick with my original 4

Seaver

Palmer

Carlton

blyleven



Other than ip, what would make you think niekro was a better pitcher than blyleven? I really can't see any aspect of pitching he was better at than bert.

garnettstyle

Blyleven was also a great post season pitcher. Just ask the 1979 Pirates.

SDSportsFan

Originally posted by: PM770

No JR Richard love?

I actually considered JR Richard for my list, as I think he's by far, the biggest/best "forgotten" pitcher of all time. When he was in his hay-day (1976-1980), he was an absolute beast (heck, he was 6' 8" tall, 220 lbs, and threw over 100 mph), and he was one of my favorites to watch! But therein lies the problem.....he didn't start until 1975 (so he only pitched half the decade). He was having the best season of his career (10-4, 1.90 ERA, 119 Ks in 113.1 IP, and only 40 BBs), when he suddenly suffered the stroke that ended his career in July of 1980 (at the age of only 30). The fact that he had complained about pre-stroke symptoms prior to it, and was ignored, and even called a malingerer by club management/team doctors, just adds to the tragedy. I would have absolutely loved to see a starting rotation of Richard, Ryan and Sutton on the Astros (and then add Mike Scott to it a few years later). That 1980 Astros team that lost in the playoffs, and the 1986 team that lost to the Mets, arguably would have both gone to the World Series and had a great shot at beating the Royals and Red Sox.



Steve