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PWCC and eBay: Commitment to an Honest Bidding Environment

My name is Brent Huigens, founder and owner of PWCC Auctions. I tend to detach myself from reading and posting to message boards as I believe they offer the hobby a forum for discussing issues openly without the influence of businesses like ours.

Let me be clear. My entire business, and in fact my personal pride as a business owner, hinges upon buyers feeling confident that they are participating in an honest, legitimate bidding environment. We have three rules at PWCC:

1. Consignors cannot bid on their own items. This includes collaborating with others to bid on their items on their behalf.
2. Winning bidders must pay for the items they win.
3. Bids cannot be retracted; any honest bid errors should be brought to us to handling personally.

While the overwhelming majority of bidders obey the rules, I find myself in a calm but constant battle to monitor bidding behavior. I truly appreciate those members of the collecting community who bring suspicious behavior to my attention and I am committed to investigating each instance of improper bidding and will take action when necessary.

Our auctions are run on the eBay platform, and we strongly believe that eBay’s software offers the most transparent, impartial bidding software in the industry. For example, neither PWCC, our consignors, or anyone else has the ability to know maximum bids. This ensures that folks don’t have the ability to drive up prices up to another bidder’s maximum and essentially eliminates the possibility of shill bidding as it’s classically defined in reference to past bad behavior in our industry (i.e. Mastro, etc.).

Having said this, there are still a number of opportunities for improvement. PWCC has developed a close partnership with eBay, and through relationships with eBay Trust & Safety and the eBay Collectibles Team we’ve been able to raise important issues around bid legitimacy to eBay executives. We’ve described to them the vulnerabilities that eBay has, and how bidders can potentially cause harm to the bidding environment. Issues such as artificially driving up prices, improper bid retractions, and other forms of manipulation are now being viewed as legitimate issues within eBay management.

We applaud eBay for cultivating a free marketplace with limited restrictions. Within this context however, PWCC is a unique eBay user and requires additional oversight due to our position in the industry. PWCC has now empowered eBay to monitor our account, using the tools they have available, to help us police the venue and ensure our auctions are the most trusted in the industry.

The exact tools that eBay plans to employ will remain confidential, but we can say with confidence that they are indeed powerful tools that we fully believe will help ensure an honest and trusted marketplace. Please spread the word that starting with Auction #7 of this year, eBay will begin their increased oversight. We are proud of the action both we and eBay are taking on this matter.

Here is a letter from eBay outlining their plan to address these issues.

Thank you for your continued support of an honest bidding environment.

P.S. PWCC will be attending the National Sports Collectors Convention this week in Atlantic City (booth 1700). If you plan to also attend and have any questions about this new approach to monitoring bid behavior in partnership with eBay, please don’t hesitate to come discuss in person. I am also available by phone and email at any time should you have any concerns, suggestions, or questions.

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions

PWCC Marketplace
market@pwccmarketplace.com
833-333-7922

Comments

  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    Without violating the confidentiality of eBay's tools, could you broadly describe how this oversight differs from what the eBay Trust & Safety team does for regular, non-PWCC auctions? The concern, as I'm sure you would understand, is that eBay policy has always looked good on paper but had major issues in enforcement. Should we believe these new procedures will be different?
  • dennis07dennis07 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭
    I applaud the efforts of PWCC. I am looking forward to progress reports on how well these initiatives work on future auctions.
    Collecting 1970 Topps baseball
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,464 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm with Bob on this one. Brent makes it sound really good and i feel like his is being very genuine, but why such secrecy?
    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • divecchiadivecchia Posts: 6,673 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It almost sounds like this may be a test run for eBay using just PWCC Auctions to implement these new procedures. Then if it works out or after all the bugs are worked out it may be the standard for all of eBay. I think it's great and at the very least it sounds like eBay is going in the right direction to try and minimize shill bidding.



    Donato
    Hobbyist & Collector (not an investor).
    Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set

    Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
  • jfkheatjfkheat Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The links to eBay's shill bidding and bid retraction policies are the same polices that eBay has had for years. They have never enforced the policies before why should we think they will now. One major change that eBay needs in regards to the bid retraction policy it a limit on how many bid retractions a user has. When there are users with 50 plus retractions in the last 6 months something needs to be done. It has been pointed out several times that some "bidders" with 50 or more retractions bid on quite a few PWCC auctions. JMO

    James
  • rcmb3220rcmb3220 Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: divecchia
    It almost sounds like this may be a test run for eBay using just PWCC Auctions to implement these new procedures. Then if it works out or after all the bugs are worked out it may be the standard for all of eBay. I think it's great and at the very least it sounds like eBay is going in the right direction to try and minimize shill bidding.

    Donato


    What I got out of it is that eBay will use existing tools and dats to finally start enforcing existing policies and use pwcc as a test case.
  • ClockworkAngelClockworkAngel Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭
    Brent, I personally appreciate you continuing to post about these things and applaud your efforts. It says a lot about your integrity and the environment you're trying to create. There is no perfect systems and haters are always going to find something to hate on, but the fact that you continue to address the issues that have some members concerned speaks volumes. Not everyone (or even close) does that.

    Good luck at the National!

    The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase
    TheClockworkAngelCollection
  • HighGradeLegendsHighGradeLegends Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭
    Great news
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,728 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This all sounds great, but until bidders are NARU'd for excessive bid retractions (not likely to happen), I don't see much, if anything, changing. As jfkheat stated, these "rules" and regulations have always been in place but are simply not enforced.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    I'm with Tim. I'll consider it all talk until I see a change
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This really seems like an ebay problem rather than a PWCC problem since these bidding methods could be used on any auction listed by any seller. However PWCC gets the notice because the number of eyeballs their auctions pull. Brent is right that at least with ebay, we don't have the shady bidding that Mastro was doing to its customers.

    I'm curious to what people think would happen if ebay were able to control (I doubt they could completely eliminate it) the suspect practices? Do you think prices would fall to pre-spike levels? How about the auctions ran on private sites like Heritage and the other large AHs?

    Mike
  • MULLINS5MULLINS5 Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭
    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the tidbit Patrick, that's the kind of evidence I hope to see more of.
  • Originally posted by: MULLINS5
    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.


    What is the advantage of multiple new buying accounts? I ask because we've only had one account for 15 years which has always worked. Although we never get ebay promotions that people post about. I imagine we can get one for her but that would just result in more headaches to keep track of. I want to make sure were maximizing our ebay benefits because we don't really see many.
  • MULLINS5MULLINS5 Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: thebaseballcardkid

    Originally posted by: MULLINS5

    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.




    What is the advantage of multiple new buying accounts? I ask because we've only had one account for 15 years which has always worked. Although we never get ebay promotions that people post about. I imagine we can get one for her but that would just result in more headaches to keep track of. I want to make sure were maximizing our ebay benefits because we don't really see many.




    I sell books for a living and get a lot of inventory off eBay. When I use my primary account I run into the problem of having sellers cancel a transaction because they know I'm just going to relist it for more. This actually happened to me today on an item I had planned to have a custom cut made from, but the seller canceled and refunded me because I used my main account, they googled my store, and put the pieces together.



    Having multiple accounts isn't as important as it was a few months ago when anybody could look at your exact bidding history through Goofbay, but it helps when those eBay coupons come along and you can use them more than once.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,728 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: MULLINS5

    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.




    I don't understand this. How can PWCC (or any seller, for that matter) permit bidding on one auction but not on another? As far as I know, the ebay platform does not offer such a restrictive setting for a seller to employ. In addition, the problem here is not bidding on multiple auction items, but shill bidding and bid retracting on specific items that are the primary issues, so what is the point of preventing a buyer from bidding on multiple items, whether he/she has a lower feedback rating or not?


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • MULLINS5MULLINS5 Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: grote15

    Originally posted by: MULLINS5

    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.




    I don't understand this. How can PWCC (or any seller, for that matter) permit bidding on one auction but not on another? As far as I know, the ebay platform does not offer such a restrictive setting for a seller to employ. In addition, the problem here is not bidding on multiple auction items, but bid retracting that is the primary issue.




    I have no idea. Maybe it's something between eBay and PWCC? Maybe Brent can expound on this restriction here? I was certainly glad to see I couldn't bid on more than one item because (I think) that's how a lot of shilling occurs (using a newer account). I can't really add anything to the discussion on bid retractions.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,728 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: MULLINS5

    Originally posted by: grote15

    Originally posted by: MULLINS5

    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.




    I don't understand this. How can PWCC (or any seller, for that matter) permit bidding on one auction but not on another? As far as I know, the ebay platform does not offer such a restrictive setting for a seller to employ. In addition, the problem here is not bidding on multiple auction items, but bid retracting that is the primary issue.




    I have no idea. Maybe it's something between eBay and PWCC? Maybe Brent can expound on this restriction here? I was certainly glad to see I couldn't bid on more than one item because (I think) that's how a lot of shilling occurs (using a newer account). I can't really add anything to the discussion on bid retractions.




    Perhaps. But I don't see how preventing a potential buyer with a lower feedback rating from bidding legitimately on multiple auction items is a remedy for the issues being discussed within this thread. You can bid on one item worth 2K, but not on 2 $20 cards?





    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • Originally posted by: MULLINS5
    Originally posted by: thebaseballcardkid
    Originally posted by: MULLINS5
    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.


    What is the advantage of multiple new buying accounts? I ask because we've only had one account for 15 years which has always worked. Although we never get ebay promotions that people post about. I imagine we can get one for her but that would just result in more headaches to keep track of. I want to make sure were maximizing our ebay benefits because we don't really see many.


    I sell books for a living and get a lot of inventory off eBay. When I use my primary account I run into the problem of having sellers cancel a transaction because they know I'm just going to relist it for more. This actually happened to me today on an item I had planned to have a custom cut made from, but the seller canceled and refunded me because I used my main account, they googled my store, and put the pieces together.

    Having multiple accounts isn't as important as it was a few months ago when anybody could look at your exact bidding history through Goofbay, but it helps when those eBay coupons come along and you can use them more than once.


    Ok thanks. That all makes sense and doesn't describe us. We rarely if ever sell. For some reason we still have never received a coupon while everyone is posting about theirs.We would like at least one. LOL. That was the only reason I could think of to getting another account. Thank you.
  • MULLINS5MULLINS5 Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: grote15

    Originally posted by: MULLINS5

    Originally posted by: grote15

    Originally posted by: MULLINS5

    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.




    I don't understand this. How can PWCC (or any seller, for that matter) permit bidding on one auction but not on another? As far as I know, the ebay platform does not offer such a restrictive setting for a seller to employ. In addition, the problem here is not bidding on multiple auction items, but bid retracting that is the primary issue.




    I have no idea. Maybe it's something between eBay and PWCC? Maybe Brent can expound on this restriction here? I was certainly glad to see I couldn't bid on more than one item because (I think) that's how a lot of shilling occurs (using a newer account). I can't really add anything to the discussion on bid retractions.




    Perhaps. But I don't see how preventing a potential buyer with a lower feedback rating from bidding legitimately on multiple auction items is a remedy for the issues being discussed within this thread. You can bid on one item worth 2K, but not on 2 $20 cards?







    I think someone who is going to shill will create a new account (or more than one) to bid on their items. By restricting new accounts it gives Brent an opportunity to screen the user (I was told in an automated message to contact the seller to be approved). It may prevent a few honest bids, but imo, it's worth it. I bid on a $30 card, then a $100 card but couldn't. When I was outbid on the $30 card it let me bid on the $100 one (which I won for about $191).

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,728 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That would be interesting if Brent has an option to "pre-approve" new bidders. Ebay actually did/does have an option to set auctions whereby all bidders must be pre-approved, but no one ever uses it. Or hobby references in order to be approved for AH bidding. Let us know if you receive some kind of confirmation from PWCC stating that your new buying ID has been "approved" for unrestricted bidding. I would imagine such a protocol would be in place for this type of situation.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: grote15
    Originally posted by: MULLINS5
    Originally posted by: grote15
    Originally posted by: MULLINS5
    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.


    I don't understand this. How can PWCC (or any seller, for that matter) permit bidding on one auction but not on another? As far as I know, the ebay platform does not offer such a restrictive setting for a seller to employ. In addition, the problem here is not bidding on multiple auction items, but bid retracting that is the primary issue.


    I have no idea. Maybe it's something between eBay and PWCC? Maybe Brent can expound on this restriction here? I was certainly glad to see I couldn't bid on more than one item because (I think) that's how a lot of shilling occurs (using a newer account). I can't really add anything to the discussion on bid retractions.


    Perhaps. But I don't see how preventing a potential buyer with a lower feedback rating from bidding legitimately on multiple auction items is a remedy for the issues being discussed within this thread. You can bid on one item worth 2K, but not on 2 $20 cards?



    I don't see how this stops shilling since the bid retractions are the bigger problem. I'm guessing that ebay is reluctant to do anything that is perceived to be anti-bidder.

    If you can restrict new bidders, then this option should be made available to all sellers. Almost all of my NPB are new bidders.

    Mike
  • MULLINS5MULLINS5 Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭
    I think the best way to remedy bid retractions is if eBay would erase all of the bid retractor's bids and restore the victim's original bid - or - have bid retractions handled/approved by PWCC - or - not allow bid retractions at all.



  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    I have been on eBay 13 years and have retracted one bid, many years ago. It really should rarely, if ever, happen.
  • baz518baz518 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭✭
    One simple solution that would help the overall problem with retractions.... allow sellers to block bidders that have reached a certain threshold (determined by the seller) of bid retractions in a certain period. As long as it's visible to other bidders, it would increase confidence in that auction IMO.
  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: MULLINS5
    I tried bidding on some PWCC cards a few days ago using one of my newer buying accounts and was only allowed to bid on one of their auctions. Hats off to PWCC for going to eBay ('cause we all know eBay didn't go to PWCC) to get shilling under control.

    This shouldn't have anything to do with the new policies. According to Brent above, they aren't starting with the new enforcement until Auction #7 and what's up now is late entries for Auction #6.
  • travis ttravis t Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DanBessette

    I have been on eBay 13 years and have retracted one bid, many years ago. It really should rarely, if ever, happen.




    12 years and zero. I'm appalled by your criminal behavior.
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    Lol, me too.
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