Originally posted by: LarkinCollector The tale of an 'honest' shiller?
Now, that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one...sort of like jumbo shrimp, lol..
This conversation is old news. It's an open secret that shilling happens and sometimes it seems that the problem is pretty ugly, but there are many people that are awful good at ferreting them out. Sadly, some that shill (safety bidders, for instance) think they are only protecting their investment or helping out their buddies, but in reality their ethics are in ill health or simply found missing.
There used to be intense apathy in the collecting community, but growing scrutiny by hobby veterans means the anonymity these shillers hide under is growing smaller. It used to seem like it was an impossible solution to stop the practice, and some thought if if it was allowed to continue the popularity of the hobby would drop like a lead balloon. Thankfully, discussions and information sharing has grown beyond a loud whisper. It won't be long until the only choice left to this small crowd of scumbags is to cease their nefarious practices, lest they find their place in the hobby suffer a crash landing.
This type of shilling and market manipulation has been going on for many years. The MastroNet scandal covers at least a 10 year period where the top auctions houses were manipulating prices.
The hobby is not going to crash because of these 10-30 guys. The hobby is much larger than the handful of cards being affected.
Also I would attribute some of the gains to normal appreciation. A lot of those key cards have traded in a tight range for years and you could argue they were due for a spike.
Originally posted by: CrissCriss Due for a spike that has some cards selling for 6 times what they were two years ago? Lolololololololololol
Google "hal steinbrenner mastro" and see the Daily News story.
I know you're waiting for a crash, but you maybe waiting a while since the MastroNet scandal, which was far more wide ranging and longer, didn't crash the hobby.
I also said SOME of the gains, not all, but whatever helps your agenda.
You guys might interpret it as a market correction, but I see the prices on the Clementes reflecting the "buy the cards not the grade" approach. No offense to anyone who may have won it here, but that Clemente PSA 8 that sold last night was a pretty low end 8 IMO without a lot of eye appeal. The Heritage Clemente PSA 8 was the nicest 8 I've ever seen and I think the price reflected that. The other ones that have sold in the last couple months were all nicer than the one last night...again all my opinion.
It could be a market correction, but I think it's more that those 8's last month were so strong. I think if another 8 popped up tomorrow as strong as a few of those, it would sail well past that 55K price
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
You guys might interpret it as a market correction, but I see the prices on the Clementes reflecting the "buy the cards not the grade" approach. No offense to anyone who may have won it here, but that Clemente PSA 8 that sold last night was a pretty low end 8 IMO without a lot of eye appeal. The Heritage Clemente PSA 8 was the nicest 8 I've ever seen and I think the price reflected that. The other ones that have sold in the last couple months were all nicer than the one last night...again all my opinion.
It could be a market correction, but I think it's more that those 8's last month were so strong. I think if another 8 popped up tomorrow as strong as a few of those, it would sail well past that 55K price
+1, Clockwork. I don't get to post much at all these days due to work, but I remain a very active buyer/collector. (Sadly, I have hit a wall in my main passion, Mantles, and can't seem to upgrade any more!)
The bottom line is the hobby has changed, in this way: many collectors these days understand that two cards with the same grade on them are NOT the same card. Same grade does NOT equal same card. Thus they can sell for two wildly different prices.
Just because one PSA 8 of a card sells for 75k, and the next PSA 8 sells for 50k, does this mean the price for ALL PSA 8s has come crashing down?
Of course not.
It simply means THAT ONE SPECIFIC CARD sold for 75k, and THAT OTHER SPECIFIC CARD sold for 50k. Same grade, but still two unique items, unique to the collectors' eyes who judge and decide what to spend on them.
The old way of looking at things, namely that all cards with the same grade should sell for the same amount with a narrow variance-- this worldview is going the way of the dinosaur.
Today eye appeal is a huge factor, impacting cards that have it, and cards that don't.
Today's collectors can tell the difference between an ugly card that barely makes the grade on technical merits yet has zero eye appeal, and a card that has centering, color, registration, and great eye appeal-- and thus is rare for having those attributes, is a joy to look at every day in hand, and presents value over spending for a much higher grade. This is why we can see a record high set for one card in an auction, and dip for another card in the same auction.
There always seems to be this (natural human?) desire to group and lump cards together, first by grade, then further lumping into generalizations about the whole "market." But each card is unique, and exceptionally pretty cards will sell for their own unique prices.
None of this is to say shilling doesn't happen, but this very real sea change in the hobby gets lost in the Sturm und Drang and bile and snark that is the internet.
End of the day, the hunt in itself is fun. The acquisition is fun. Looking at a card and all the thoughts and memories it conjures is fun. Beholding its rare, attractive qualities is fun. Organizing the collection is fun. It's supposed to be fun. And it is.
It is probably a combination of both. It seems like every time to you turn around there is a Clemente PSA 8 coming to market from various sources. You can't throw that many cards at the market after a 15 fold run up and expect them all to do well.
I think cards like this and the Pete Rose are two prime examples where there is a decent amount of supply and a few collectors chose to hit the bid. There is another one running in the Goldin auction and it doesn't appear to have a bid in at least a week if not more. With the BP it would be just under 59k.
Perhaps a copy that looks like a 9 will bring 100k plus but I think it is more likely some cooling has taken place here.
That said if you look at how well the Gretzky PSA 9 just did and the 1961 Fleer basketball the market is still red hot for many issues and certainly not in full scale correction mode.
Originally posted by: DM23HOF +1, Clockwork. I don't get to post much at all these days due to work, but I remain a very active buyer/collector. (Sadly, I have hit a wall in my main passion, Mantles, and can't seem to upgrade any more!)
The bottom line is the hobby has changed, in this way: many collectors these days understand that two cards with the same grade on them are NOT the same card. Same grade does NOT equal same card. Thus they can sell for two wildly different prices.
Just because one PSA 8 of a card sells for 75k, and the next PSA 8 sells for 50k, does this mean the price for ALL PSA 8s has come crashing down?
Of course not.
It simply means THAT ONE SPECIFIC CARD sold for 75k, and THAT OTHER SPECIFIC CARD sold for 50k. Same grade, but still two unique items, unique to the collectors' eyes who judge and decide what to spend on them.
The old way of looking at things, namely that all cards with the same grade should sell for the same amount with a narrow variance-- this worldview is going the way of the dinosaur.
Today eye appeal is a huge factor, impacting cards that have it, and cards that don't.
Today's collectors can tell the difference between an ugly card that barely makes the grade on technical merits yet has zero eye appeal, and a card that has centering, color, registration, and great eye appeal-- and thus is rare for having those attributes, is a joy to look at every day in hand, and presents value over spending for a much higher grade. This is why we can see a record high set for one card in an auction, and dip for another card in the same auction.
There always seems to be this (natural human?) desire to group and lump cards together, first by grade, then further lumping into generalizations about the whole "market." But each card is unique, and exceptionally pretty cards will sell for their own unique prices.
None of this is to say shilling doesn't happen, but this very real sea change in the hobby gets lost in the Sturm und Drang and bile and snark that is the internet.
End of the day, the hunt in itself is fun. The acquisition is fun. Looking at a card and all the thoughts and memories it conjures is fun. Beholding its rare, attractive qualities is fun. Organizing the collection is fun. It's supposed to be fun. And it is.
Nice post on your triumphant return Matty!
I don't post much either and I am in the same boat as you. I've picked up most of the stuff I've had on my wish list and am not sure where to go next in my collecting strategy. Plus the market has priced me out of a lot of the high end stuff I might have chased a couple years ago.
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
Comments
The tale of an 'honest' shiller?
Now, that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one...sort of like jumbo shrimp, lol..
This conversation is old news. It's an open secret that shilling happens and sometimes it seems that the problem is pretty ugly, but there are many people that are awful good at ferreting them out. Sadly, some that shill (safety bidders, for instance) think they are only protecting their investment or helping out their buddies, but in reality their ethics are in ill health or simply found missing.
There used to be intense apathy in the collecting community, but growing scrutiny by hobby veterans means the anonymity these shillers hide under is growing smaller. It used to seem like it was an impossible solution to stop the practice, and some thought if if it was allowed to continue the popularity of the hobby would drop like a lead balloon. Thankfully, discussions and information sharing has grown beyond a loud whisper. It won't be long until the only choice left to this small crowd of scumbags is to cease their nefarious practices, lest they find their place in the hobby suffer a crash landing.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
The hobby is not going to crash because of these 10-30 guys. The hobby is much larger than the handful of cards being affected.
Also I would attribute some of the gains to normal appreciation. A lot of those key cards have traded in a tight range for years and you could argue they were due for a spike.
Due for a spike that has some cards selling for 6 times what they were two years ago? Lolololololololololol
So you're saying 3x is a bargain?
Due for a spike that has some cards selling for 6 times what they were two years ago? Lolololololololololol
Google "hal steinbrenner mastro" and see the Daily News story.
I know you're waiting for a crash, but you maybe waiting a while since the MastroNet scandal, which was far more wide ranging and longer, didn't crash the hobby.
I also said SOME of the gains, not all, but whatever helps your agenda.
Clemente RC PSA 8 just sold for $55,700. Not $100,000. Not a crash but it's saying something.
Agree. I thought the prices were relatively soft last night in the PWCC auction.
It could be a market correction, but I think it's more that those 8's last month were so strong. I think if another 8 popped up tomorrow as strong as a few of those, it would sail well past that 55K price
TheClockworkAngelCollection
You guys might interpret it as a market correction, but I see the prices on the Clementes reflecting the "buy the cards not the grade" approach. No offense to anyone who may have won it here, but that Clemente PSA 8 that sold last night was a pretty low end 8 IMO without a lot of eye appeal. The Heritage Clemente PSA 8 was the nicest 8 I've ever seen and I think the price reflected that. The other ones that have sold in the last couple months were all nicer than the one last night...again all my opinion.
It could be a market correction, but I think it's more that those 8's last month were so strong. I think if another 8 popped up tomorrow as strong as a few of those, it would sail well past that 55K price
Please. Stop. You're being too sensible.
The bottom line is the hobby has changed, in this way: many collectors these days understand that two cards with the same grade on them are NOT the same card. Same grade does NOT equal same card. Thus they can sell for two wildly different prices.
Just because one PSA 8 of a card sells for 75k, and the next PSA 8 sells for 50k, does this mean the price for ALL PSA 8s has come crashing down?
Of course not.
It simply means THAT ONE SPECIFIC CARD sold for 75k, and THAT OTHER SPECIFIC CARD sold for 50k. Same grade, but still two unique items, unique to the collectors' eyes who judge and decide what to spend on them.
The old way of looking at things, namely that all cards with the same grade should sell for the same amount with a narrow variance-- this worldview is going the way of the dinosaur.
Today eye appeal is a huge factor, impacting cards that have it, and cards that don't.
Today's collectors can tell the difference between an ugly card that barely makes the grade on technical merits yet has zero eye appeal, and a card that has centering, color, registration, and great eye appeal-- and thus is rare for having those attributes, is a joy to look at every day in hand, and presents value over spending for a much higher grade. This is why we can see a record high set for one card in an auction, and dip for another card in the same auction.
There always seems to be this (natural human?) desire to group and lump cards together, first by grade, then further lumping into generalizations about the whole "market." But each card is unique, and exceptionally pretty cards will sell for their own unique prices.
None of this is to say shilling doesn't happen, but this very real sea change in the hobby gets lost in the Sturm und Drang and bile and snark that is the internet.
End of the day, the hunt in itself is fun. The acquisition is fun. Looking at a card and all the thoughts and memories it conjures is fun. Beholding its rare, attractive qualities is fun. Organizing the collection is fun. It's supposed to be fun. And it is.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
KC
I think cards like this and the Pete Rose are two prime examples where there is a decent amount of supply and a few collectors chose to hit the bid. There is another one running in the Goldin auction and it doesn't appear to have a bid in at least a week if not more. With the BP it would be just under 59k.
Perhaps a copy that looks like a 9 will bring 100k plus but I think it is more likely some cooling has taken place here.
That said if you look at how well the Gretzky PSA 9 just did and the 1961 Fleer basketball the market is still red hot for many issues and certainly not in full scale correction mode.
+1, Clockwork. I don't get to post much at all these days due to work, but I remain a very active buyer/collector. (Sadly, I have hit a wall in my main passion, Mantles, and can't seem to upgrade any more!)
The bottom line is the hobby has changed, in this way: many collectors these days understand that two cards with the same grade on them are NOT the same card. Same grade does NOT equal same card. Thus they can sell for two wildly different prices.
Just because one PSA 8 of a card sells for 75k, and the next PSA 8 sells for 50k, does this mean the price for ALL PSA 8s has come crashing down?
Of course not.
It simply means THAT ONE SPECIFIC CARD sold for 75k, and THAT OTHER SPECIFIC CARD sold for 50k. Same grade, but still two unique items, unique to the collectors' eyes who judge and decide what to spend on them.
The old way of looking at things, namely that all cards with the same grade should sell for the same amount with a narrow variance-- this worldview is going the way of the dinosaur.
Today eye appeal is a huge factor, impacting cards that have it, and cards that don't.
Today's collectors can tell the difference between an ugly card that barely makes the grade on technical merits yet has zero eye appeal, and a card that has centering, color, registration, and great eye appeal-- and thus is rare for having those attributes, is a joy to look at every day in hand, and presents value over spending for a much higher grade. This is why we can see a record high set for one card in an auction, and dip for another card in the same auction.
There always seems to be this (natural human?) desire to group and lump cards together, first by grade, then further lumping into generalizations about the whole "market." But each card is unique, and exceptionally pretty cards will sell for their own unique prices.
None of this is to say shilling doesn't happen, but this very real sea change in the hobby gets lost in the Sturm und Drang and bile and snark that is the internet.
End of the day, the hunt in itself is fun. The acquisition is fun. Looking at a card and all the thoughts and memories it conjures is fun. Beholding its rare, attractive qualities is fun. Organizing the collection is fun. It's supposed to be fun. And it is.
Nice post on your triumphant return Matty!
I don't post much either and I am in the same boat as you. I've picked up most of the stuff I've had on my wish list and am not sure where to go next in my collecting strategy. Plus the market has priced me out of a lot of the high end stuff I might have chased a couple years ago.
TheClockworkAngelCollection