Options
Best Fielding Catchers
dallasactuary
Posts: 4,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
A couple of recent threads just got me curious. Who were the best fielding catchers of all time?
I looked at every piece of data I could find, and I'm 100% sure that each of the 10 catchers I will list here was an excellent catcher. I'm anywhere from 99% to 20% sure that each of them actually belongs in the top 10, though; different data available in different eras, the position of catcher has changed over time more than any other, and other factors mean that a lot of guessing/speculation/interpretation went into this. I'm 0% sure what order these 10 belong in, so I'm just listing them alphabetically:
Johnny Bench - Maybe not the best ever at any single part of the game, but nothing close to a weakness. Never led the league in number of runners thrown out because the number of runners who tried to run on him was so low. He did lead in caught stealing % several times, even though only the fastest runners were testing him. Of the catchers on this list he was far and away the best hitter, although that didn't enter into the making of the list.
Buck Ewing - 19th century HOFer. Best WAR/game average in history; best fielding % relative to league in history. Not many games played, but catching was an absolute beating back then.
Gabby Hartnett - Depression era HOFer. In his time, the best at pretty much everything, and still top 10 in several categories.
Charles Johnson - Journeyman modern catcher, had his best seasons with the Marlins. Similar to Bench, fielding, in his prime and his prime lasted longer because he didn't play every day like Bench did. His 1997 season is one of the greatest ever behind the plate, and he even hit well that year.
Ron Karkovice - A terrible hitter, especially for a catcher, but the White Sox kept him around for over a decade because his fielding was spectacular. A beast throwing out runners and a defensive star at pretty much every aspect of the game.
Yadier Molina - Wondering if he really was the best ever was part of what prompted this list, and my conclusion is that yes, he was the best ever. Every modern stat agrees, and his caught stealing relative to league average is also the best ever.
Ivan Rodriguez - Second only to Yadi at throwing out runners, his Win Shares per game (I don't have that stat for Molina) is the best ever. WAR ranks him a little bit higher than Molina.
Ray Schalk - Deadball era catcher who hit more like Mendoza than Bench, he nonetheless was a top 10 MVP vote-getter twice. Best of his era and an iron man for that time, his stats still hold up very well today.
Pop Snyder - Who? The best catcher before Buck Ewing came along, that's who. Couldn't hit - nobody who took the abuse these guys took could hit - but he was the best catcher of his time and his Win Shares per game is still second of all time (probably third if I had that stat for Molina).
Jim Sundberg - Contemporary of Bench and all the stats say he was as good as, and maybe slightly better than, Bench. Toiled for a terrible team, but won Gold Gloves most years and led the league in every defensive category several times.
Pretty much every catcher was eligible for this list, but I did ignore the ones who didn't play very long. It may be that the greatest defensive catcher ever hit .125 for a little while and never made the majors again. So rather than "Top 10 Defensive Catchers", I guess this list is "Top 10 Defensive Catchers Who Played the Equivalent of a Full Career at Catcher", jist in case anyone was wondering.
I looked at every piece of data I could find, and I'm 100% sure that each of the 10 catchers I will list here was an excellent catcher. I'm anywhere from 99% to 20% sure that each of them actually belongs in the top 10, though; different data available in different eras, the position of catcher has changed over time more than any other, and other factors mean that a lot of guessing/speculation/interpretation went into this. I'm 0% sure what order these 10 belong in, so I'm just listing them alphabetically:
Johnny Bench - Maybe not the best ever at any single part of the game, but nothing close to a weakness. Never led the league in number of runners thrown out because the number of runners who tried to run on him was so low. He did lead in caught stealing % several times, even though only the fastest runners were testing him. Of the catchers on this list he was far and away the best hitter, although that didn't enter into the making of the list.
Buck Ewing - 19th century HOFer. Best WAR/game average in history; best fielding % relative to league in history. Not many games played, but catching was an absolute beating back then.
Gabby Hartnett - Depression era HOFer. In his time, the best at pretty much everything, and still top 10 in several categories.
Charles Johnson - Journeyman modern catcher, had his best seasons with the Marlins. Similar to Bench, fielding, in his prime and his prime lasted longer because he didn't play every day like Bench did. His 1997 season is one of the greatest ever behind the plate, and he even hit well that year.
Ron Karkovice - A terrible hitter, especially for a catcher, but the White Sox kept him around for over a decade because his fielding was spectacular. A beast throwing out runners and a defensive star at pretty much every aspect of the game.
Yadier Molina - Wondering if he really was the best ever was part of what prompted this list, and my conclusion is that yes, he was the best ever. Every modern stat agrees, and his caught stealing relative to league average is also the best ever.
Ivan Rodriguez - Second only to Yadi at throwing out runners, his Win Shares per game (I don't have that stat for Molina) is the best ever. WAR ranks him a little bit higher than Molina.
Ray Schalk - Deadball era catcher who hit more like Mendoza than Bench, he nonetheless was a top 10 MVP vote-getter twice. Best of his era and an iron man for that time, his stats still hold up very well today.
Pop Snyder - Who? The best catcher before Buck Ewing came along, that's who. Couldn't hit - nobody who took the abuse these guys took could hit - but he was the best catcher of his time and his Win Shares per game is still second of all time (probably third if I had that stat for Molina).
Jim Sundberg - Contemporary of Bench and all the stats say he was as good as, and maybe slightly better than, Bench. Toiled for a terrible team, but won Gold Gloves most years and led the league in every defensive category several times.
Pretty much every catcher was eligible for this list, but I did ignore the ones who didn't play very long. It may be that the greatest defensive catcher ever hit .125 for a little while and never made the majors again. So rather than "Top 10 Defensive Catchers", I guess this list is "Top 10 Defensive Catchers Who Played the Equivalent of a Full Career at Catcher", jist in case anyone was wondering.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
0
Comments
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I was expecting Bill Dickey... he was not there and I suspect you will have reasons.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I started with a list of about 100 catchers, which I assembled from all-time leaders in WAR, Win Shares, Fielding %, CS %, etc. Dickey was on that list, and as I eliminated people who weren't in the top 10 in anything, or in the top half in almost everything, Dickey survived. Dickey ended up, as I recall, in the top 20, but compared to the catchers who did make the top 10, Dickey would be at or near the bottom in pretty much everything that I looked at. For example, the only catcher with a lower WAR per game than Dickey was Hartnett, but Hartnett beat Dickey handily in Win Shares, and edged him in CS% vs. league and in fielding % vs. league. And Hartnett led the league in Win Shares, CS% and fielding % more times than Dickey. If I started with Bench instead of Hartnett, I'd note that Bench was last on the Win Shares per game list but Dickey would be next-to-last, and that Bench beat him, sometimes handily, at the other measures. So Dickey isn't in the top 10 because there's nobody in the top 10 that I would bump for Dickey. He was close, though. Others who were close included Muddy Ruel, Mikey Cochrane, Jim Hegan, Johnny Edwards, Bill Freehan, Gary Carter and Tony Pena.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Berra led the league 21 times in the areas of; Put-outs (8), Assists (5), Double Plays (6) and Fielding Average (2). Bench has a total of 5 times, twice in Put-outs and once in the other 3 categories.
From the book Yogi Berra Eternal Yankee; "Bill James's meticulously researched Win Shares method gives Berra an A as a defensive catcher for his career and Bench an A-. (Roy Campanella, Bill Dickey and Mickey Cochrane all got A's too.)"
There's a whole chapter at the end of the book that I am sure Dallas would LOVE, lots of great stats and comparisons. Most involve hitting, and Bench and Berra come out as the best of the best overall.
Nothing on Yogi Berra? I am wondering what factor(s) kept him off your list?
Berra led the league 21 times in the areas of; Put-outs (8), Assists (5), Double Plays (6) and Fielding Average (2). Bench has a total of 5 times, twice in Put-outs and once in the other 3 categories.
From the book Yogi Berra Eternal Yankee; "Bill James's meticulously researched Win Shares method gives Berra an A as a defensive catcher for his career and Bench an A-. (Roy Campanella, Bill Dickey and Mickey Cochrane all got A's too.)"
There's a whole chapter at the end of the book that I am sure Dallas would LOVE, lots of great stats and comparisons. Most involve hitting, and Bench and Berra come out as the best of the best overall.
Berra was a great catcher. But as much as I respect James and his stats, his are the only ones that show Berra better than Bench, or in the top 10. His WAR per game is way below anyone in my top 10, and nothing else stands out. His zone runs aren't available for the first several years of his career, but they are for more than 1,000 games and his average isn't even close to anyone else's. From my original 100 Berra survived several cuts, but it was only his Win Shares that was keeping him alive and so he got cut eventually.
With regard to the stats you mentioned, note that putouts for a catcher are 90+% strikeouts; catchers on teams with good pitchers get more putouts than catchers on teams with bad pitchers and there's no way to separate out the "good" putouts from the strikeouts. Assists are mostly caught stealing, so that's double counting the same thing; I did include caught stealing. Double plays are rare, so differences don't mean a whole lot, and a fair number of those are catching a third strike and then throwing out a runner - it would be double/triple counting to include them. That leaves fielding average and I did look at that; I didn't weight it too much because the denominator - chances - is primarily putouts, which are primarily strikeouts. Which is all to say that measuring fielding contributions by catchers is tricky at best, impossible at worst. If you're asked who the best fielding catchers are and Bill James says Berra is one of them and dallasactuary says he isn't you'd probably be wise to trust James. But this is my list, so it was bound to be different than James' list, and I just hope it makes people stop and think, even if after thinking about it they still don't agree.
Hartnett also hit one of the most famous home runs of the day in 1938 that set the stage for the Cubs to clinch the pennant. Another moment Cub fans will never forget.
I think they called that one the 'Homer in the Gloamin'?
Funny they used to have nicknames for home runs back then.
Bobby Thomsons' was the 'shot heard round the world'.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
I like that you have Charles Johnson on your list. He was very good and not too many know about him. Short career hurts.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
He fried off a throw to 2nd base so quick and fast the runner actually stopped and headed back to first.
From a pure defensive standpoint he may have been the best I ever saw.
Too bad he couldn't hit at all.
That's going back to Bench and slightly before.
I loved Pudge R, Piazza (hitting only), and admire Molina. Liked Sundberg and even Ted simmons (more so for hitting).
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
How did Lance Parrish fare in your analysis?
He did well, about the same as Berra. He was top 10 in some categories, but barely, and was well behind in some others. While he led the league in most categories once or twice (in a long career) the only category he led in multiple times was passed balls. I actually thought Parrish would make the top 10 before I started, but the stats just didn't support it. Great catcher, just not top 10 great.
Any problem with these rankings?
How did Lance Parrish fare in your analysis?
He did well, about the same as Berra. He was top 10 in some categories, but barely, and was well behind in some others. While he led the league in most categories once or twice (in a long career) the only category he led in multiple times was passed balls. I actually thought Parrish would make the top 10 before I started, but the stats just didn't support it. Great catcher, just not top 10 great.
He gets bonus points for the orange highlighter glove. YOU GOTTA TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/fielding_perc_c_career.shtml
Any problem with these rankings?
Yeah, lots of problems. I've mentioned some already and won't repeat them here, but here's a good rule of thumb that applies to any baseball-reference leaders list:
When you open the list, they show pictures of the top 20 players right at the top. If you're looking at a meaningful list, you'll see a relatively even mix of color (modern)and b&w (old-timer) pictures. With catchers FP - nothing but color. On the flip side, if you look at caught stealing % - nothing but b&w. Anytime you see that - or close to that - you know that something fundamental has changed about the game or the position over the years and you can't compare across eras using that statistic. In the case of catcher's FP or CS, and most anything else, you should compare the player's stat to the league average stat while he played. You have to do that one at a time, though. The only catcher's fielding leaders list that is close to evenly mixed is career double plays, which are so rare that averaging 2 per season gets you on the all-time leaders list; that is, double plays by catchers are close to random events, so it's fairly randomly distributed over time. Every other leader list will reflect that the stat being measured was much easier/harder to accumulate in one era over others.
.988 lifetime fielding (ranks 141. Bench tied at 83), and the highest lifetime caught stealing percentage at 57.4%.
No props?
How about Yadier Molina? Tied for 13th all-time fielding, and 44.56% cs? Solid numbers, no?
How about Campanella?
.988 lifetime fielding (ranks 141. Bench tied at 83), and the highest lifetime caught stealing percentage at 57.4%.
No props?
How about Yadier Molina? Tied for 13th all-time fielding, and 44.56% cs? Solid numbers, no?
Had "Campy" gotten promoted to the majors sooner, he may be regarded as the best fielding AND hitting catcher of all time.
Anyone interested in catchers would enjoy the book "Yogi Berra Eternal Yankee"!!!