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Sultan of Muscat 1804 dollar NO SALE
Steve27
Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
Bid up to 9,200,000 plus the juice, but it wasn't enough.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
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Most likely that the high bidder was the auction company bidding for the consignor...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Really? I did not hear that. So they open it at that high price, get all those folks to bid and then pass it? Geez!
There is no requirement to open at reserve. Most of time for expensive items, large auction houses will build a runway for airplanes to take off.
It was sold. I watched it.
Yup. Initially reported on their website as SOLD for $10,810,000. And later changed to "PASSED." Maybe they were checking credit histories....lol. Unless someone can prove otherwise, looks like there was real money on the coin near the $8-$10 MILL level. That's a far cry from saying it was unsold near the $4 MILL opening bid. The highest bid under reserve may have taken it to $9 MILL hammer/bid....and not enough.
I suspect the Pogue's wanted to take out the previous record set by the 1794 SP66 or else no deal....for now. Won't be surprised if a few weeks or months from now we read about a private sale with price unknown. If there was real money behind the coin at $10.0 MILL, someone else might step up to the plate at a higher level and meet the asking price.
Seems odd to have a reserve, but not to let the high bidder have a chance to actually win the coin... perhaps that high bidder would have bid that number to get the coin??? Oh well... wasn't me winning so not that big of a deal
Most likely that the high bidder was the auction company bidding for the consignor...
Stranger things have happened
I think that would have been a new record for a US coin at 9.2 million.
US coin results in a pass. ??
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
And of course to keep things interesting a floor bidder bid on the wrong Gobrecht dollar
mark
Edited for happy fingers
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm at the auction. Lots of strange bidding. The 1822 $5 bidding actually went backwards for awhile.
And of course to keep things interesting a floor bidder bid on the wrong Gobrecht half dollar
mark
Gobrecht half dollar ? Oh, that got to be an unique one
I'm at the auction. Lots of strange bidding. The 1822 $5 bidding actually went backwards for awhile.
And of course to keep things interesting a floor bidder bid on the wrong Gobrecht half dollar
mark
Do you happen to know what it stopped at before they passed?
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Wondercoin
Does anyone happen to know at what bid level it was actually down to the final real bidder bidding against the reserve on the 1804?
Wondercoin
$9.2M is the last bid and looking for $9.4M
I'm at the auction. Lots of strange bidding. The 1822 $5 bidding actually went backwards for awhile.
And of course to keep things interesting a floor bidder bid on the wrong Gobrecht half dollar
mark
Gobrecht half dollar ? Oh, that got to be an unique one
Yah, I got ahead of myself. Maybe the bidder was just as confused
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Wondercoin
I'm at the auction. Lots of strange bidding. The 1822 $5 bidding actually went backwards for awhile.
And of course to keep things interesting a floor bidder bid on the wrong Gobrecht dollar
mark
Do you happen to know what it stopped at before they passed?
It opened at 6.0 million. No bids. Phone bid accepted at 5.5 or 5.6 it wasn't clear. Bidding made its way up to 6.0 million with a bid of 6.0 with an ask of 6.25. That was hit and made its way to 6.4. Passed at 6.6
Sorry for the fast typing. Trying to do ten things at once
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Does anyone happen to know at what bid level it was actually down to the final real bidder bidding against the reserve on the 1804?
Wondercoin
The last bid that sounded legit was at 9.0 Million when the company came back quickly with a bid of 9.2 then was asking for 9.4. After waiting that out then it was hammered at 9.2 and she said "pass". The 1822 $5 seemed to reach 6.2 million as an apparent real bid before closing at 6.4.
$9.0 would have set a new record with the fee at $10,575,000 so it apparently wasn't that which the consignor was waiting for.
Not sure why the reserve was done that way. Maybe they decided on the fly whether to keep it and preferred to sell it (and the 1822 $5) only if an undefined irresistible level was reached.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I'm at the auction. Lots of strange bidding. The 1822 $5 bidding actually went backwards for awhile.
And of course to keep things interesting a floor bidder bid on the wrong Gobrecht dollar
mark
Edited for happy fingers
I was at home watching the internet bidding. (Was there video and audio? I did not see nor hear anything from Sotheby's room. I just saw the bid amounts on the screen.)
The price jumped from 2m open to 6m and the increments were then showing wrong with the next increments in +$500,000 w/$250k cut. So.... ahem.... bugs ... again... surprise.
once they backed the bids down to 5.5m, I noticed the increments reset and things went away. ha. evil pun.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I was sitting in the row in front of MJ and Oreville but had to leave before it was over ( sorry I did not get to stay for the post-game). I thought the Cardinal sale was a bit out of the ordinary but this topped that many times over for odd auction action. I will leave it to those better informed to opine and maybe even explain ( I certainly would listen closely to roadrunner, i.e. a knowledgeable guy without a dog in the fight). Kevin Lipton certainly had some entertaining moments. Glad I went but the main reason for my attendance - to get my own feel for the present state of the coin market -- was an incomplete at best.
Dude I didn't know that was you!!
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm at the auction. Lots of strange bidding. The 1822 $5 bidding actually went backwards for awhile.
And of course to keep things interesting a floor bidder bid on the wrong Gobrecht dollar
mark
Edited for happy fingers
I was at home watching the internet bidding. (Was there video and audio? I did not see nor hear anything from Sotheby's room. I just saw the bid amounts on the screen.)
The price jumped from 2m open to 6m and the increments were then showing wrong with the next increments in +$500,000 w/$250k cut. So.... ahem.... bugs ... again... surprise.
once they backed the bids down to 5.5m, I noticed the increments reset and things went away. ha. evil pun.
Yes---video and audio. Watched from
My phone
I was sitting in the row in front of MJ and Oreville but had to leave before it was over ( sorry I did not get to stay for the post-game). I thought the Cardinal sale was a bit out of the ordinary but this topped that many times over for odd auction action. I will leave it to those better informed to opine and maybe even explain ( I certainly would listen closely to roadrunner, i.e. a knowledgeable guy without a dog in the fight). Kevin Lipton certainly had some entertaining moments. Glad I went but the main reason for my attendance - to get my own feel for the present state of the coin market -- was an incomplete at best.
Dude I didn't know that was you!!
mark
Ha! Sorry I couldn't stay to talk and since I no longer have any idea how to PM on here, I had to put it in a thread.
I will follow Andy L's advice elsewhere in one of these threads and try to determine how strong the bids were on the coins that actually sold.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I was sitting in the row in front of MJ and Oreville but had to leave before it was over ( sorry I did not get to stay for the post-game). I thought the Cardinal sale was a bit out of the ordinary but this topped that many times over for odd auction action. I will leave it to those better informed to opine and maybe even explain ( I certainly would listen closely to roadrunner, i.e. a knowledgeable guy without a dog in the fight). Kevin Lipton certainly had some entertaining moments. Glad I went but the main reason for my attendance - to get my own feel for the present state of the coin market -- was an incomplete at best.
Dude I didn't know that was you!!
mark
Ha! Sorry I couldn't stay to talk and since I no longer have any idea how to PM on here, I had to put it in a thread.
I will follow Andy L's advice elsewhere in one of these threads and try to determine how strong the bids were on the coins that actually sold.
If you want to intiate a pm hit private message. It's in black print. That will bring you to your message history. You can pm from there
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
How'd you like to be Stacks and lose out on the commission on $10M+ in sales?
Where do you think the real non house bid was at. There sure seemed to be a lot of chum in the water.
FYI I spoke to your partners after the sale. You have a fine team
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Legend
There?
Was
Legend
There?
Laura and George were there
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I have NO idea what the real bid level was on those coins. They certainly would have sold with no reserve but Laura knew early on that the reserve levels were going to be huge and that they weren't going to sell.
I was hoping for a guess
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
How'd you like to be Stacks and lose out on the commission on $10M+ in sales?
Conjecture. They may have lost nothing and knew that going in. We don't know what the real arrangement was on this unique type of collection. Could have been a fixed X% to the house if the 1804/1822 didn't sell, or a Y% buy back fee, or a reduced commission on the rest of the unreserved lots to get a special deal with the 1822/1804, or a contingency that Stacks Bowers could still "get something" on a sale occurring in the next XXX days. We just don't know if they lost out on anything. If the 1822 or 1804 were to only sell at Holy Grail prices, well then no auction house was going to get the max juice on those two. Interesting that some players were given the reserve levels well before the sale.
Stacks/Bowers are big boys and had to know going in what the odds were of those two monsters selling/not selling at the agreed upon reserves. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten the deal if they didn't agree to such terms....and Heritage gets the coins. How would you have liked to have been S/B and lost the entire collection to someone else? Ouch! Heritage beat them out on Newman and Gardner. A nice coup that they did get the Pogue collection...as they also got Eliasberg.
I have NO idea what the real bid level was on those coins. They certainly would have sold with no reserve but Laura knew early on that the reserve levels were going to be huge and that they weren't going to sell.
I was hoping for a guess
mark
Ok, here's my educated guess on their values:
1804 $1 is still the king of American coins but this particular specimen is overgraded by two points just like they all are. The toning is reportedly into the metal, but the other top specimens have their own issues [scratched out spot in the obverse field on a 67, punched in initial etc] so it's still probably the best. However the combination of a slight environmental damage along with a too optimistic grade just puts a bad spin on things. Unreserved, it probably would have opened and advanced a bid or two. $5M
1822 $5 is a great great coin ....but who needs it to complete a set? It's like the 70-s half dime, essentially uniquie but in a series that isn't popular. To the right buyer all frenzied up it's probably justifiable at the above level, but I just wonder if that person is out there. $3M
Those are just my personal opinions based upon my knowledge of top end coins and their values. No insult to the coins intended as they are fantastic examples of American coinage - it's just that when it comes time to put one's money up it's a little bit different.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I went looking for 1913 Lib nickels and 1804 dollars at CAC. Couldn't find any listed. Does that dramatically change their importance and desirability?
TDN, your last post seems to be highlighting registry SETS (ie popular ones) and stickers (coins must be A/B quality for assigned grade). That's one view of the market....and maybe the safest one minimizing downside. It may not be the only view or best one though. I went looking for 1913 Lib nickels and 1804 dollars at CAC. Couldn't find any listed.
I'm pretty sure two 1913's are CAC.
Not just Registry sets but sets, yes. Collecting is changing - coins have gotten more expensive and people are specializing more and more. I collect dollars....but I avoid the proofs ...not because I wouldn't want them but because I want to build a great set of uncirculated coinage. The 1804 just doesn't fit - thus my opinion that it would be a waste of funds to buy one. I made the decision a year ago that buying back my Seated dollar set was far more important to my legacy as a collector than buying ANY coin at Pogue.
I went looking for 1913 Lib nickels and 1804 dollars at CAC. Couldn't find any listed. Does that dramatically change their importance and desirability?
It would certainly be interesting to know how many times any of these coins were submitted to CAC.
I went looking for 1913 Lib nickels and 1804 dollars at CAC. Couldn't find any listed. Does that dramatically change their importance and desirability?
It would certainly be interesting to know how many times any of these coins were submitted to CAC.
They'd only have to go once. CAC wouldn't forget. And if you have one of them that could sticker, you'd be foolish not to have it done if you were planning on selling in the near future.
I went looking for 1913 Lib nickels and 1804 dollars at CAC. Couldn't find any listed. Does that dramatically change their importance and desirability?
It would certainly be interesting to know how many times any of these coins were submitted to CAC.
They'd only have to go once. CAC wouldn't forget. And if you have one of them that could sticker, you'd be fool not to have it done if you were planning on selling in the near future.
Interesting as you pointed out that none are CAC stickered in the database. I also checked Gold database, which I already assumed would also be void of these dates.
http://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-...-ngc-cac/a/1201-5161.s
Link
Near the bottom of that page, the latest CAC references show no stickers, including the 64 grade. And I couldn't find a listing for 1913 Lib nickels at CAC. Could they have removed the sticker from that 64 CAC?
http://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-liberty-nickels/1913-5c-liberty-pr64-ngc-cac/a/1201-5161.s
YOUR LINK:
It is not in the CAC database. I wonder if the coin was crossed or upgraded and they removed it from the records??
Roadrunner and I are in sync, scary.
Pretty sure that coin is back in a PCGS holder
Either way, I don't see a 64 CAC listed. Certainly CAC would have a right to change their mind after a coin was reholdered/crossed, etc, especially if something happened to change it in any way.
1822 $5 is a great great coin ....but who needs it to complete a set?
All the collectors who can't afford the complete $5 set could SAVE SAVE SAVE millions of dollars and use it in a complete 1822 year set instead.
About the reserves, Stack's Bowers could announce that the underbids just below the final hammer bids were real. If they don't, I guess it will have to be assumed they were not real. Not sure what the point of doing a meaningless dance of dueling false bids well above legitimate bids would be.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin