Sending in this 1837 Feuchtwanger, what do you think it will grade?

mercurydimeguy

Cracked this out of an old small Anacs holder... sending in raw.



PS. Imaging coins is SO much easier when raw

drwstr123

Lovely looking coin.
Is the horizontal line through the 8 PMD?

Unknown

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kookoox10

Should grade around an AU50 even with the small date ding.

TommyType

Given the usual weakness of strike, (and my own AU-58), I can't imagine it grading much lower than 58.



As for mint state potential, I think it's a coin where you really need to examine the surfaces, luster, etc. Could go MS, but I'm not going to claim I can make that judgement from a picture....



Added:



Just reviewed my PCGS AU 58, (Photo complements of Michael Kittle, who I bought it from).





Based on that, yours should NEVER go below 58!! Ever.

IrishMikey

It looks new to me, but these are really hard to grade from an image. How is the luster?

Desert Moon

Here is an accurately graded MS64 example. The example the OP posted appears to be dull and lacking luster so probably mid-AU range - maybe even down at AU50 as already mentioned. Plus it has a detracting and obvious nick across the 8 in the date that may result in a net grade. However it could be just the image, have to see in hand to examine the luster. Which variety is it?

Best, SH

mercurydimeguy

Based on that, yours should NEVER go below 58!! Ever.

Thanks for doing your research and the photo of your 58. It looks very nice.



The luster on this piece is full and unbroken. The surfaces are very choice, the strike is spectacular.



Other than the PMD across the date, this is about as nice of an all around piece as I've seen. I currently have a PC64 CAC and the strike on this new piece is nicer (but it is a different die marriage).



Here's an MS63 for comparison: http://coins.ha.com/itm/hard-times-tokens/1837-1c-feuchtwanger-cent-ms63-pcgs-low-120-ht-268-breen-6-g/a/1219-9021.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

Desert Moon

Originally posted by: mercurydimeguy

Based on that, yours should NEVER go below 58!! Ever.

Thanks for doing your research and the photo of your 58. It looks very nice.

The luster on this piece is full and unbroken. The surfaces are very choice, the strike is spectacular.

Other than the PMD across the date, this is about as nice of an all around piece as I've seen. I currently have a PC64 CAC and the strike on this new piece is nicer (but it is a different die marriage).

Here's an MS63 for comparison: http://coins.ha.com/itm/hard-times-tokens/1837-1c-feuchtwanger-cent-ms63-pcgs-low-120-ht-268-breen-6-g/a/1219-9021.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

If the luster is as you describe, then with the nick in the date, 62-63, probably 63, so forget my original suggestion of mid-50s..............

Best, SH

thebeav

Yes, it is a luster question......That's a hell of a coin.......

Flatwoods

It sure looks mint state to me.

Awesome coin!

I'm stuck at 63 just because of the luster.

If the luster is better than the pic shows, I would have no problem with 64.

Broadstruck

It's UNC and I see it as a MS62... Not sure how PCGS will see it?



Thanks for posting as there hasn't been much on here in weeks worth commenting on.

cardinal

Originally posted by: TommyType
Given the usual weakness of strike, (and my own AU-58), I can't imagine it grading much lower than 58.

As for mint state potential, I think it's a coin where you really need to examine the surfaces, luster, etc. Could go MS, but I'm not going to claim I can make that judgement from a picture....

Added:

Just reviewed my PCGS AU 58, (Photo complements of Michael Kittle, who I bought it from).


Based on that, yours should NEVER go below 58!! Ever.

Yes, weakness of strike is a general trait of the issue. I looked a long time before finding one with a sharp strike (at least on the obverse) --



I think the metallic composition makes it hard to capture the luster in photos. This one has plenty of luster, to the satisfaction of PCGS and CAC.

Zoins

The detail on the piece in the OP is pretty amazing. Love the detail on the eagle's wing and snake's head. Good luck on getting it graded!

Beautiful Feuchtwangers everyone! Cardinal's has an amazing amount of detail remaining as well.

JRocco

I see the OP coin going 64. Amazing strike for this issue and some contact marks, like the date ding, will keep it from gem.

Cardinal's coin is just scary nice.

mercurydimeguy

Originally posted by: cardinal



I think the metallic composition makes it hard to capture the luster in photos.

You are spot on with that... the luster on these coins isn't the same.



Here's my other 64 (see below). which has spectacular color and unusually sparkly lister in hand, but the obverse strike doesn't compare to the strike of the new one that I'm sending in (look at the snake).



The one I'm sending in raw came from one of those old Anacs holders, it was graded MS63...and even if it grades MS62-63-64 at PCGS, it has tremendous strike for the issue.



I also sent it in Secure so I'm going to get one of Phil's nice photos of it

SeattleSlammer

63

oldlinecoins

64



A wonderful example



I think these coins are so cool!

Baley

Well above average strike and nice surfaces are going to count for a lot on this very nice coin.



MS63 is my guess

Walkerguy21D

Some of the nicest ones I've seen are posted in this thread - that Cardinal piece is phenomenal!

brg5658

I think that the OP's example and the phenomenal example posted by Cardinal are both the 5H die marriage is no accident.



As for the OP's piece, the luster is really hard to tell in those photos -- but if it's all there, I'm in the MS63/64 camp.

brg5658

Originally posted by: mercurydimeguy



Here's my other 64 (see below). which has spectacular color and unusually sparkly lister in hand, but the obverse strike doesn't compare to the strike of the new one that I'm sending in (look at the snake).

The snake strike/detail is a function of this being obverse die 6, whereas your new one is die 5. They both have superb strikes, but your new one simply had a better detailed die to start with.

ambro51

There is absolutely no continuity of grade with these coins from TPGs. Nor can you rely/trust/believe grade opinions on this learned forum. If YOU like it....that's ALL that counts. (Period)

mercurydimeguy

Here are Phil's images of the coin (now PCGS graded).



Link to hi res image if you are interested. It has amazing detail and luster.

ambro51

....so what's the official grade guess?

jcping

63 with a good chance to sit in a 64 holder in a good day

jughead1893

64

oih82w8

These Feuchtwanger Composition Cents are kinda intriguing. PCGS does not have a Coin Facts page for them, but they holder them?



Just in case some other "newbies" to the token is interested in some die-marriage info;



Feuchtwanger's composition cent attribution die marriages

ambro51

They've holdered them for years but to date have not variety attributed them (even for a fee). Crazy. And quite the disservice to collectors who want to compare variety populations or sell for proper money. A variety 1A is Wasaay rarer than a 6I.

pmac

Originally posted by: ambro51
They've holdered them for years but to date have not variety attributed them (even for a fee). Crazy. And quite the disservice to collectors who want to compare variety populations or sell for proper money. A variety 1A is Wasaay rarer than a 6I.

Nice to hear from you again. As to grading and encapsulating just like all coins that have been done, there are people who need to assess the relative value of their coin. I totally agree with you that if you like it, then buy it.

yosclimber

Some great coins and photos on this thread - thanks for sharing.

TPRC

Originally posted by: Broadstruck
It's UNC and I see it as a MS62... Not sure how PCGS will see it?

Thanks for posting as there hasn't been much on here in weeks worth commenting on.

+1. Yours and the MS 66 posted are both the 5-H variety, which is one of the varieties that comes very well struck. The other pics are of different varieties and the strikes on these cents make them tough to grade. Your cent also does have some damage in the date. That said, it is very nice, looks fully original, and I could even see it as a 63.

So what' the verdict?

mercurydimeguy

I grade this coin a high end 62, and market acceptable in the MS63-MS64 range. I've seen a ton of them, and own a 64 CAC (my other one I also had graded...it has nice color).



PCGS graded this coin AU58 on the first submission, and CAC stickered it.



Unfortunately, on the day of grading, the graders didn't see this unquestionably UNC coin as UNC.



Thanks for your interest.

ambro51

Ok. Well AU58 has seen a lot of Great coins, don't let it get you down. Refer to my earlier post basically TPGs show misunderstanding and lack of consistency. Personally I feel the so called "Strike Weakness" is a minting decision by Dr Feuchtwangee to make the coins stack better. He used high quality modern German equipment (and talent) at 2 Courtlandt Street. He made 1 1/2 million coins. SOME pieces show full strike details, most do not, I think this was done on purpose to ease use of the coins. Grading by TPGs is inconsistent, and now trends tend to be (as always) leaning to Vivid Rainbow Toners (VRT). A true marvel since German Silver is naturally resistant to tarnishing. But somehow some tone possibly due to old time collector storage of these interesting coins since the first (and finest today) pieces were set aside and saved as curiosities. These very pieces pit away in 1837 are the very coins we today find surviving in high MS graded. Curiously I know of no recorded surviving presentation coins given to politicians. None seem to remain with documentation. Too bad. •••••••••••••. This is my favorite silver penny this Variety 4E is ex. QDB and was selected by him to be the plate coin for the Feuchtwanger Currency in "100 Greatest Medals and Tokens". And to be honest is was sold at auction as "stacks grade" AU58. I grade it.....well you look for defects and decide yourself :-).