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Lincoln Die Trial - CWT or not?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 12, 2018 8:07AM in U.S. Coin Forum
I've been looking at CWTs for a while and recently ran across the following Lincoln token die trial which I thought was pretty cool. I couldn't match it to any CWTs in the references I was using and I was wondering if anyone can identify this. Anyone have an idea of what this is?

image

Comments

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check the Merriam medal book, which I do not have at hand.



    Way kewl piece!



    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • DNADaveDNADave Posts: 7,271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I looked my old copy of Fuld, but I didn't see any reverse that looked like it.
  • LotsoLuckLotsoLuck Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭
    That is a really cool piece. The aura around Abe doubles down on the cool factor.
    I'd say not CWT but as the Captain mentioned, a medal.
  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Robert Bashlow made a number of uniface restrikes around 1960, from Civil War-era dies. This has the general look of one of his strikings, but I don't recognize it specifically either.
  • LotsoLuckLotsoLuck Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DNADave
    I looked my old copy of Fuld, but I didn't see any reverse that looked like it.


    Ditto. I checked the Patriotic edition as well. I did not see that particular profile of Abe.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check this out.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: MrEureka

    Check this out.




    I does look similar to Mirriam's Lincoln design, but certainly a different portrait. Are you saying it is probably a die trial from an unknown die he created?



    Doug
  • LoveMyLibertyLoveMyLiberty Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DMWJR

    Originally posted by: MrEureka

    Check this out.




    I does look similar to Mirriam's Lincoln design, but certainly a different portrait. Are you saying it is probably a die trial from an unknown die he created?









    I think it might be closer to J-C1868 / P5105 which is just

    the bust & no wording.



    An image of this is in United States Pattern Coins 10th edition

    on page 318 under Pieces Not of Mint Origins



    My Type Set

    R.I.P. Bear image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the replies everyone. I agree it looks similar to, but not exactly the same as, the posted pattern designs by Mirriam: P5080 and P5105. Still need to checkout the Merriam medal book mentioned by the Captain.

    Love the look of this piece and hope more light will be shed on it in the future image

    USPatterns.com has an image of P5105 here.
  • DCWDCW Posts: 7,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What "Merriam book" are you all talking about? As a great admire of Joseph Merriam, the medalist in Civil War era Boston, I'm unaware of a definitive reference book and this looks nothing like his work. Completely different.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The book is the one referenced by TD above.

    Regarding this piece, I have no info on it and am just going by what people are saying in this thread.
  • DCWDCW Posts: 7,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    The book is the one referenced by TD above.

    Regarding this piece, I have no info on it and am just going by what people are saying in this thread.



    TD simply stated the "Merriam medal book." I do not believe one exists yet, and I think perhaps he is talking about the Bolen reference by Neil Musante?

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • DNADaveDNADave Posts: 7,271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DCW
    What "Merriam book" are you all talking about? As a great admire of Joseph Merriam, the medalist in Civil War era Boston, I'm unaware of a definitive reference book and this looks nothing like his work. Completely different.


    Completely different? How so? I think they at least are similar.
    image
    image


  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DCW

    Originally posted by: Zoins

    The book is the one referenced by TD above.



    Regarding this piece, I have no info on it and am just going by what people are saying in this thread.






    TD simply stated the "Merriam medal book." I do not believe one exists yet, and I think perhaps he is talking about the Bolen reference by Neil Musante?




    "D'OH!" Yes, I meant the Bolen book.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • MedalCollectorMedalCollector Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The portraits are too similar not to be from the same engraver. Otherwise one piece was used as an "inspiration" for another die maker. It's not like this is a super common portrayal of Lincoln. Either way, they are related.
  • BodinBodin Posts: 1,012 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DNADave
    Originally posted by: DCW
    What "Merriam book" are you all talking about? As a great admire of Joseph Merriam, the medalist in Civil War era Boston, I'm unaware of a definitive reference book and this looks nothing like his work. Completely different.


    Completely different? How so? I think they at least are similar.
    image
    image




    Also, it looks very similar to AL 1864-32 campaign medal in Sullivan's book

    This was posted a few years ago ATS by Bill Jones

    image
    image

    image
  • BodinBodin Posts: 1,012 ✭✭✭
    Although not much detail in the beard, the suit and button are a close match
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Close? It is a cropped version of the 1864. When I say cropped, I don't mean in today's terms. That is an exact match, just slightly reduced in scope.
    Doug
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DMWJR
    Close? It is a cropped version of the 1864. When I say cropped, I don't mean in today's terms. That is an exact match, just slightly reduced in scope.


    The hair on the 1864 is very different. The 1864 has a pretty sharp hair part line from the forehead to the back of the head which isn't present on the 1866 or die trial.

    Seems like the die trail has hair closer to the 1866 and suit closer to the 1864.
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All three are different, no doubt. I was trying to help you find the originator of the trial. It appears you have a unique piece.
    Doug
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think a lighter strike of the 1864, reduced, could produce the same image.
    Doug
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DMWJR
    I think a lighter strike of the 1864, reduced, could produce the same image.


    The die trial looks pretty hammered to me. I'm not sure how a lighter strike of the 1864 would match up with the hair part line.

    The suit does look closer, but I don't see you you'd end up with the same hair given how deep of a crease the hair part line looks on the 1864.
  • SullivanNumismaticsSullivanNumismatics Posts: 842 ✭✭✭✭
    The die trial looks double-struck to me, and also is different than the other designs (as others have said.) The lapel on the coat is the most obvious difference.

    Very neat coin--I like it.
    www.sullivannumismatics.com Dealer in Mint Error Coins.

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