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Got my NUGT's back.....

guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭
Never thought I'd recover from that 1-10 reverse split last October when I got caught with my pants down holding 800 shares at almost $9/share when the price was $2-3.xx at the split. Left me with 80 shares at ~ $90/share. Being young, dumb, and full of I don't care, I let it roll knowing that sooner or later it was bound to bounce back. Closed at $119 today. These 3X ETFs are a wild ride I tell ya. A stupid stupid ride.
@ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.

Comments

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: guitarwes
    Never thought I'd recover from that 1-10 reverse split last October when I got caught with my pants down holding 800 shares at almost $9/share when the price was $2-3.xx at the split. Left me with 80 shares at ~ $90/share. Being young, dumb, and full of I don't care, I let it roll knowing that sooner or later it was bound to bounce back. Closed at $119 today. These 3X ETFs are a wild ride I tell ya. A stupid stupid ride.


    Splits don't affect your value. What you loose or gain in dollars per share gets offset by number of shares. Reverse splits normally occur to get the price per share back above the minimum price required to keep it listed (last I checked it was $2) on the big boards. They did you a favor.

    Takes big ones to hold a 3X leveraged ETF that long. I don't like holding them overnight. In the event metals crash in the overnight markets you can't protect them with a stop limit while the US stock markets are closed. Lot more work to trade them daily, but since Jan. NUGT has been very, very worth it.

    Even in a bull market you can play the dips with DUST and make money on the ups and the downs.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are a brave man. Glad you got your NUGT's back.
  • bluelobsterbluelobster Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭
    Of course, you have to sell before it's too late or they'll take your nugt's back ;~
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,293 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Learning is earning me a degree in the school of bigger fish.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: derryb

    Even in a bull market you can play the dips with DUST and make money on the ups and the downs.




    I'd like to see that person that was able to ride DUST on/off in 2016 and not get their head handed to them on the volatility (ie a net winner in 2016) on a half a dozen to a dozen trades. DUST from around $15 at the start of 2016 and hit in the $1.30's on Friday. Considering GDX hasn't even doubled in that time, that's a huge amount of decay to have to deal with. DUST has far worse decay that NUGT. And JDST might be the worst of all. On paper, DUST should have dropped by a factor of 1/6.28 (3X the inverse of the GDX rise). That's a non-decay projection of $2.39 for DUST. So in just 4 months, DUST has had a 45% decay.



    Since mid-January there's been no realistic trades in DUST...other than to short it, which was probably next to impossible to find the shares to do that. It's been like trying to catch a falling knife most of the time....just like NUGT was in March-June 2013.



    DUST horror show
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is no decay with a leveraged ETF if it is not held overnight. There were plenty of days in 2016 where gold moved down from its opening. The 2016 gains have not been a strait shot up - they are the result of more and bigger daily gains than daily losses. DUST can make money if bought in the morning on a down day and sold before closing - I know this to be a fact. Take the daily profits with the NUGT and re-evaluate each morning. If you really feel a sure thing then let the ETF ride overnight, but be aware that overnight overseas metal market weakness could cause your ETF to be worth much less when your ability to trade it opens in the morning.

    I have made only three trades on DUST this year but could have made more that were also profitable if I were not limited by IRA trading rules imposed by the IRS. My 2016 trading in NUGT and DUST in this one of five IRA accounts shows a net 258% gain so far. Remember, you don't win with every trade, being right more than you are wrong is what churns profit.

    My point is that instead of taking a daily loss on a held weekly or monthly winner, why not dump the winner during its down move and trade the inverse move. This is what I mean by trading the ups and the downs.

    Being that I am trading IRA accounts, I am limited (IRS settled funds rule) to trading no sooner than every fourth business day while I await the settlement of funds from the last sale. I can buy with these unsettled funds at any time, but am locked into holding the position until the funds settle - not something you should do with a leveraged ETF. Ability to exit at any time is important.

    The only good protection one has with leveraged ETFs is a stop limit order. This protection is only good while the US equities market is open, the order expires when the market closes. If a gold ETF is held overnight and gold tanks on the overseas metals markets, the related ETF will open in the US markets much lower than it closed the day before. The gold related ETF position will not be protected by a stop that expired the day before.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: roadrunner
    Originally posted by: derryb
    Even in a bull market you can play the dips with DUST and make money on the ups and the downs.


    I'd like to see that person that was able to ride DUST on/off in 2016 and not get their head handed to them on the volatility (ie a net winner in 2016) on a half a dozen to a dozen trades. DUST from around $15 at the start of 2016 and hit in the $1.30's on Friday. Considering GDX hasn't even doubled in that time, that's a huge amount of decay to have to deal with. DUST has far worse decay that NUGT. And JDST might be the worst of all. On paper, DUST should have dropped by a factor of 1/6.28 (3X the inverse of the GDX rise). That's a non-decay projection of $2.39 for DUST. So in just 4 months, DUST has had a 45% decay.

    Since mid-January there's been no realistic trades in DUST...other than to short it, which was probably next to impossible to find the shares to do that. It's been like trying to catch a falling knife most of the time....just like NUGT was in March-June 2013.

    DUST horror show



    It's called simple mathematics roadrunner, not decay.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: cohodk
    Originally posted by: roadrunner
    Originally posted by: derryb
    Even in a bull market you can play the dips with DUST and make money on the ups and the downs.


    I'd like to see that person that was able to ride DUST on/off in 2016 and not get their head handed to them on the volatility (ie a net winner in 2016) on a half a dozen to a dozen trades. DUST from around $15 at the start of 2016 and hit in the $1.30's on Friday. Considering GDX hasn't even doubled in that time, that's a huge amount of decay to have to deal with. DUST has far worse decay that NUGT. And JDST might be the worst of all. On paper, DUST should have dropped by a factor of 1/6.28 (3X the inverse of the GDX rise). That's a non-decay projection of $2.39 for DUST. So in just 4 months, DUST has had a 45% decay.

    Since mid-January there's been no realistic trades in DUST...other than to short it, which was probably next to impossible to find the shares to do that. It's been like trying to catch a falling knife most of the time....just like NUGT was in March-June 2013.

    DUST horror show



    It's called simple mathematics roadrunner, not decay.



    Actually it is called beta slippage and it is a little more than simple math.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Its pretty simple to me. image


    Funny how its called decay when the result is under performance. What is it called when there is over performance as the case with NUGT over the last 3 months?

    Its just math. image
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,293 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not sure it's math. Seems more like bragging and whining with good or bad timing.
  • mariner67mariner67 Posts: 2,746 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin
    Not sure it's math. Seems more like bragging and whining with good or bad timing.


    +1
    Successful trades/buys/sells with gdavis70, adriana, wondercoin, Weiss, nibanny, IrishMike, commoncents05, pf70collector, kyleknap, barefootjuan, coindeuce, WhiteTornado, Nefprollc, ajw, JamesM, PCcoins, slinc, coindudeonebay,beernuts, and many more
  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin

    Not sure it's math. Seems more like bragging and whining with good or bad timing.




    That's pretty much the case with my trades.
    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: cohodk
    Its pretty simple to me. image


    Funny how its called decay when the result is under performance. What is it called when there is over performance as the case with NUGT over the last 3 months?

    Its just math. image

    NUGT, while performing well, is also subject to beta slippage. This "decay" is a result of a leveraged ETF having to adjust its exposure to the underlying ETF (in this case the gold miner ETF, GDX) on a daily basis. After a big move up the leveraged ETF NUGT doesn't have enough exposure supporting it so the fund must buy more gold miners. When the gold miners decline (taking NUGT down with them), then NUGT has too much exposure and has to unload gold miners in order to rebalance.

    Everything on Wall Street is just simple math - until it isn't.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: derryb
    Originally posted by: cohodk
    Its pretty simple to me. image


    Funny how its called decay when the result is under performance. What is it called when there is over performance as the case with NUGT over the last 3 months?

    Its just math. image

    NUGT, while performing well, is also subject to beta slippage. This "decay" is a result of a leveraged ETF having to adjust its exposure to the underlying ETF (in this case the gold miner ETF, GDX) on a daily basis. After a big move up the leveraged ETF NUGT doesn't have enough exposure supporting it so the fund must buy more gold miners. When the gold miners decline (taking NUGT down with them), then NUGT has too much exposure and has to unload gold miners in order to rebalance.

    Everything on Wall Street is just simple math - until it isn't.



    Lol. I love this place. If one can't do simple math, live a simple life. I envy those that can.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • carew4mecarew4me Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭✭
    NUGT crushed.

    Loves me some shiny!
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: carew4me
    NUGT crushed.

    buying opportunity, but only at the right time. I expect further decline.

    Anyone who moved into a DUST position before 2 p.m. today saw some hefty gains.
    selling opportunity ahead.

    Stronger economic activity reported for April and FED jawboning June rate increase are puting a damper on metals and miners and boosting dollar index.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The miners have been extremely resilient on every decent dip of the past month or two. So it wouldn't surprise me if they rally back to the last higher gap (50-62% retrace).



    Was holding a small tranche of DUST since Monday ($1.29) and sold that into this morning's open for a 29% gain. I couldn't think of selling it yesterday as my brokerage didn't recognize it as a security while it was in the process of doing the 1-10 split. I was hoping for a second tranche around 1.20 Monday but it never came.



    Got to remember that on these sharp dips to immediately buy some NUGT when bailing out of DUST. Gold dropped around $45 in a fairly decent 5 wave decline. It was very likely to bounce out of today's pre-OpEx crash. NUGT was good for a quick 15% gain this morning after GDX's $22.80 low. I'll do it better next time.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are benefits to simple math, lol.

    I still make my money by providing expertise to my customers, but I look forward to the day when I can join you in the casino.

    In the meantime, I know what it is that I'm buying, and why I'm buying it.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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