Yes, I did ask Peter Huntoon about this phenomenon. His theory was in line with DateBackDude -- that the Bureau had anticipated the recharter date and prepared plates in advance. He also speculated that this particular plate was created during the short period when Thomas P. Kane was acting Comptroller, roughly May to September of 1908. Kane was very efficient and understood BEP processes quite well, so he may have pushed through the paperwork for extensions to make currency deliveries more timely. He also mentioned that when the appointed Comptroller took office (Lawrence O. Murray) he tended to flaunt the rules. It would be interesting to see if most of this sort of plate curiosity falls into a particular time period.
To answer your last question first, the examples for 4178 provided in my post were over a year after September 1908 and more about this below.
I think that's a partial explanation, but in addition to the anticipation suggested in my earlier post, it appears that other things may have been involved as well. For instance Huntoon has documented plate dating conventions both in his LS National book and in articles. The conventions for plate dates changed over time and do not always seem consistent, and earlier use of batch dating makes comparison with the approval date difficult to sort out in some cases. I did look at several banks with extension in the STL metro and found the following:
Original/1875 conversion to 1882 series.
170 has an approval date after plate date while 260 (FNB of St Charles) and 283 (4th NB of STL) have approval dates before plate dates:
260 approval 12/5/82 vs a plate date of 2/25/83 (almost 3 months later)
283 approval 1/8/83 vs plate date of 2/25/83 for both the $5s and the $50-100
1882 conversion to 1902 (red seals)
170 and 283 both have approval dates after the plate date (in 1903)
1882 conversion to 1902 (blue seals)
Only a few of these in my area, but all consistently seem to have an approval date before the plate date. In addition to the 4178 mentioned before:
5002 missing in the files
5172 approval 1/9/19 vs plate 1/17/19
5138 (NE NB of KC) approval 7/16/18 vs plate of 7/25/18
There's only one "fourth charter" conversion in my area, that of the FNB of Collinsville IL, charter 6125 (plate date of Jan 24, 1922). The approval date seems to be an error: Jan 3, 1921 (!). The $5 proof has a more reasonable approval date of Jan 5, 1922. The Collinsville proofs are in IL box 8, page 16 of 21. Here's the bottom of the proof:
So while the change may have been initiated by Kane (would be great to see some documentation tho), these data support the notion that it continued until the length of the bank charters was extended in the early 1920s, eliminating the need for extensions altogether.
**edited to correct error and add pic
Always interested in St Louis MO & IL metro area and Evansville IN national bank notes and Vatican/papal states coins and medals!
And here's another from the same time period. This one was certified more than two months ahead of the plate date. So apparently this was a fairly common practice at that time.
The lone Utah box of NBN proofs is currently up for transcribing and I found a couple interesting items today.
First, I noticed on this territorial proof that the month of the plate date (March) is abbreviated "Mch". I suspect this was typical for the period, but I've never see it done that way before. Present day abbreviations are always "Mar." and it's such a short month it is commonly not abbreviated at all. linkie
I also found a proof of the very last plate letter star usage -- and the only one from Utah. This was added when the plate was re-engraved following statehood and the signatures were also changed. From the Commercial Bank of Salt Lake City, ch. 4051, certified 3/27/1896. Here's the $20 with a close-up. linkie Close-up linkie
EDIT: I can't seem to post my Google photos here anymore, just links. Any assistance is appreciated.
Thanks Jim - I tried all the steps suggested and got nowhere. I believe this is an issue that can only be fixed here by CU. For now, all I can do is post links if I want to stay with Google Photos.
Last summer, while I was doing volunteer transcribing for the Smithsonian's National Bank Note Certified Proof collection, I posted a number of topics like this one, related to nationals (and learned a lot in the process).
I'm not sure when it happened, but these proofs are now publicly viewable online! Just go to the Collections page of the National Museum of American History. Then do a search for a state or town followed by "certified proof". If you want some eye candy, try San Juan or Juneau. Happy hunting!
Comments
I think that's a partial explanation, but in addition to the anticipation suggested in my earlier post, it appears that other things may have been involved as well. For instance Huntoon has documented plate dating conventions both in his LS National book and in articles. The conventions for plate dates changed over time and do not always seem consistent, and earlier use of batch dating makes comparison with the approval date difficult to sort out in some cases. I did look at several banks with extension in the STL metro and found the following:
Original/1875 conversion to 1882 series.
170 has an approval date after plate date while 260 (FNB of St Charles) and 283 (4th NB of STL) have approval dates before plate dates:
260 approval 12/5/82 vs a plate date of 2/25/83 (almost 3 months later)
283 approval 1/8/83 vs plate date of 2/25/83 for both the $5s and the $50-100
1882 conversion to 1902 (red seals)
170 and 283 both have approval dates after the plate date (in 1903)
1882 conversion to 1902 (blue seals)
Only a few of these in my area, but all consistently seem to have an approval date before the plate date. In addition to the 4178 mentioned before:
5002 missing in the files
5172 approval 1/9/19 vs plate 1/17/19
5138 (NE NB of KC) approval 7/16/18 vs plate of 7/25/18
There's only one "fourth charter" conversion in my area, that of the FNB of Collinsville IL, charter 6125 (plate date of Jan 24, 1922). The approval date seems to be an error: Jan 3, 1921 (!). The $5 proof has a more reasonable approval date of Jan 5, 1922. The Collinsville proofs are in IL box 8, page 16 of 21. Here's the bottom of the proof:
So while the change may have been initiated by Kane (would be great to see some documentation tho), these data support the notion that it continued until the length of the bank charters was extended in the early 1920s, eliminating the need for extensions altogether.
**edited to correct error and add pic
First, I noticed on this territorial proof that the month of the plate date (March) is abbreviated "Mch". I suspect this was typical for the period, but I've never see it done that way before. Present day abbreviations are always "Mar." and it's such a short month it is commonly not abbreviated at all.
linkie
I also found a proof of the very last plate letter star usage -- and the only one from Utah. This was added when the plate was re-engraved following statehood and the signatures were also changed. From the Commercial Bank of Salt Lake City, ch. 4051, certified 3/27/1896. Here's the $20 with a close-up.
linkie
Close-up linkie
EDIT: I can't seem to post my Google photos here anymore, just links. Any assistance is appreciated.
Jim61
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16566561 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps and TheRock!
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16977961.
Looking for $1 CU FRN 99999961 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps!
Looking for $50 FRN 00000061
Last summer, while I was doing volunteer transcribing for the Smithsonian's National Bank Note Certified Proof collection, I posted a number of topics like this one, related to nationals (and learned a lot in the process).
I'm not sure when it happened, but these proofs are now publicly viewable online! Just go to the Collections page of the National Museum of American History. Then do a search for a state or town followed by "certified proof". If you want some eye candy, try San Juan or Juneau. Happy hunting!