Dealers not having a clue!

joeykoins

I've been thinking about how many times I go into a new coin shop, getting to know the owner and later in time I find out he doesn't have a clue on some well known varieties/errors! I would be cherrypicking and he would ask, "what exactly are you looking for?" He would tell me I don't mind you looking but show or teach me about these special coins. I don't understand how a coin dealer can open a business and without a clue knowing the basics of these varieties/error coins. Shouldn't they do their homework? I know it's their preference but still? They are letting extra money leave the store without even knowing! Oh well, to each his own I guess?

morgandollar1878

Some are happy with what they sell as it is. Some do not have time to search through every coin that shows up in the store. The volume of items that come into a B&M can be quite high.

Flatwoods

I would say that is more common than not.

Many dealers buy and sell "by the book" and do fine.

Many don't have the time or inclination to learn about varieties.



It is a time consuming task to learn about/ search for varieties.



Most know about the big ones but don't spend a lot of time on the lesser known ones.

TomB

I have never had your experience of a brick & mortar dealer having no clue about well known varieties or errors, but do realize that it can happen. However, I would suggest that many, if not most, shops have been making their money on the buy-sell spread of bullion for at least the last eight years and that looking through all the coins for varieties might not be at the top of the "to do" list.

Shamika

Originally posted by: joeykoins
I've been thinking about how many times I go into a new coin shop, getting to know the owner and later in time I find out he doesn't have a clue on some well known varieties/errors!

Joeykoins - In fairness to these dealers, please define what you mean by "well known varieties/errors".

oih82w8

"well known varieties/errors" are probably being referring to as the BIG ONES in the Red Book; 55 Doubled Die, 3-Leg Buffalo, 42/1 Liberty Dime, 18/7 Standing Liberty Quarter, etc...

CoinRaritiesOnline

It's pretty hard to be an expert at everything.

TommyType

I had a fairly well known California dealer look at the label on a Morgan I was selling, and ask "1878, rev of '79....how do you tell the difference?"



So, yeah, it happens.



But the basic concept of "sell for more than you bought it for" doesn't require any deep knowledge. And chances are, in one or more areas, the same dealer could knock your socks off with knowledge and history. But no man can know EVERYTHING!!

joeykoins

Well, for one, he didn't know of the "Wide A.M." variety. Either, the '98-2000' and the Proof "Close A.M." He also didn't know about the Kennedy "Accented Hair". He was aware of the famous '55 D.D. and the Copper '43 Cent. but for the later ones, Niltch! Not even the "Superbird" in which I originally, went in his store to hunt for.

joeykoins

Tribute to Prince!
This would be like going into a record store today,and buying any Prince material. Albeit, his autographs, records, CD's, shirts, whatever... and the owner selling at the original price when he opened his store. The premium is not there. This owner, as well as, the coin owner would be leaving money on the table.

Wabbit2313

God Bless these dealers!

291fifth

Many dealers pay little attention to "cherry-picker" varieties because the only real market for them is the "cherry-pickers" themselves ... and they know they won't pay a premium for them as they are only interested in them if they can "cherry-pick" them for no premium. If a dealer thinks he can actually get a premium for something his interest will increase rapidly.

joeykoins

Originally posted by: 291fifth
Many dealers pay little attention to "cherry-picker" varieties because the only real market for them is the "cherry-pickers" themselves ... and they know they won't pay a premium for them as they are only interested in them if they can "cherry-pick" them for no premium. If a dealer thinks he can actually get a premium for something his interest will increase rapidly.

Yes, this is my point. Once the dealer is wise to these coins than automatically, he just added more value to his inventory.

BStrauss3

So he buys it for $100 sells it for $125 ... he can do that all day long and stay in business. Why don't you offer to work there one day a week, doing variety attribution for a share of the excess profits?

joeykoins

Originally posted by: BStrauss3
So he buys it for $100 sells it for $125 ... he can do that all day long and stay in business. Why don't you offer to work there one day a week, doing variety attribution for a share of the excess profits?

That is a good idea. What I'm about to say would probably be answering my own question: I would love to work at his store for the reason you gave BUT I don't have the TIME! I know this would mean that I,me,myself would be leaving money on the table for not jumping on that opportunity! Yes, this sort of was mentioned by someone else earlier in the thread.

hchcoin

I have been teaching at a college for 16 years now and am considered an expert in my field having spent my whole adult life studying my subject matter. Every couple weeks a student teaches me something new and I continue to learn new things every day. Considering the new discoveries and technology in my field, it is a wonder anyone can keep up. I spend a considerable amount of time reading online just to keep up with current topics but still can't know it all.

Any teacher or professor who acts like they know it all is full of it and full of themselves. No different than doctors, police officers, lawyers or politicians who act like they know it all. Most of the time they are just covering up their insecurities by putting up a false front to save face. I would much rather associate with people and professionals that understand their limitations and go find answers when they don't know something rather that BS'ing their way through it.

jdimmick

Now, I have the time to check stuff , need too to pick up an extra buck or two,

But back in the hey day , we were buying so much stuff , you really didn't have time to check everything.

ebaybuyer

the dealer must spend the time searching for those varieties, or paying someone to .. the varieties you are looking for may not be financially feasible to search for by his standards

COINS MAKE CENTS

I know I don't have the time to go threw every coin I buy. Shoot I don't even think I have time to go threw 1 out of every 5 coins I buy

JCLIGHTBRIGADE

I agree, it's too much effort for dealers for little to no return.

keets

the simplest explanation is that no one can know everything and most dealers are generalists.

jtlee321

Well I'm glad there are dealers out there who don't care or have the time to go through their inventory. I both care and have time to do it. That is how I can make enough profit to add nice coins to my collection and pay for grading fees. If they want the extra money, good for them, take the time to learn. No one ever lost anything by learning.

Cougar1978

How they run their business in terms of varieties, cherrypicking (a highly specialized area) is not for me to judge.

If they do their homework, the item will not be there to be cherry picked anyway. Many are not into varieties anyway unless to cherry pick then flip.

Many Dealers are generalists or that and have expertise in one particular field like World Gold. Being able to buy low and sell high is the one critical skillset in the coin business. A dealers time can be limited and they have to focus on the big picture of buying and selling.

Picking involves a huge time commitment in both study and field exploration.

TwoSides2aCoin

Originally posted by: morgandollar1878
Some are happy with what they sell as it is. Some do not have time to search through every coin that shows up in the store. The volume of items that come into a B&M can be quite high.

USMarine6

Well said hchcoin.

Rampage

Originally posted by: joeykoins

Originally posted by: BStrauss3

So he buys it for $100 sells it for $125 ... he can do that all day long and stay in business. Why don't you offer to work there one day a week, doing variety attribution for a share of the excess profits?

That is a good idea. What I'm about to say would probably be answering my own question: I would love to work at his store for the reason you gave BUT I don't have the TIME! I know this would mean that I,me,myself would be leaving money on the table for not jumping on that opportunity! Yes, this sort of was mentioned by someone else earlier in the thread.

You are assuming by your comment that everyone only cares about money. You also have to think about whether or not spending a day or two at the shop every week is work your time. Is it worth your time to spend 10 to 12 hours a week, hunting for cherries? Would you not rather being doing something fun with life? By your comment about not having time, I assume you with work or go to school full time, or perhaps both? So, throwing another day or day and a half on top of that would leave you absolutely no time to enjoy that few extra bucks you bring it. At some point, you lose money. Assuming your time is worth say $30 an hour? You can figure the math...

Davideo

Originally posted by: joeykoins
Well, for one, he didn't know of the "Wide A.M." variety. Either, the '98-2000' and the Proof "Close A.M." He also didn't know about the Kennedy "Accented Hair". He was aware of the famous '55 D.D. and the Copper '43 Cent. but for the later ones, Niltch! Not even the "Superbird" in which I originally, went in his store to hunt for.

These are all modern coins. It's quite possible those are not really his area of expertise. Either way, it sounds like a good thing to you.

mustangmanbob

As a mere peon, who has only been collecting for about 50 or so years, off and on, the Varieties that I WOULD collect have to be BIG and recognizable, like the 60 SD LD (got them) the 55 double (maybe in about 20 years when the price comes way down), the 42 over 41 (found one in a junk box) etc. Motto or no motto, yes, but I do not collect that series.

No interest: The 22 Plain (not really a "real coin, just a worn out die or 2), all 487 difference varieties of the Lincoln Centennial, any of the "missing lettering, mint mark, etc. that smack of someone on the inside "making" a special for financial profit, and DDR DDO RPM DDE BPOE OPEC OMG that appear to be just normal, within tolerance manufacturing process.

I have never owned a Cherry Picker's guide, have no interest in one. IMHO, the market is SOOOO thin for them, that it is great for those who love it, but, some little WIDE or NARROW lettering/ whatever, is not just of interest for me.

My wife already rolls her eyes at the WOW, look at the price difference between having a D or no mintmark, or the price difference between MS66 and MS67 (Who really knows what that is, and with enough submissions, you win the grading lottery), I would hesitate to even tell her about the variety concept, as that would cause the Nerdometer to explode.

joeykoins

Originally posted by: jtlee321
Well I'm glad there are dealers out there who don't care or have the time to go through their inventory. I both care and have time to do it. That is how I can make enough profit to add nice coins to my collection and pay for grading fees. If they want the extra money, good for them, take the time to learn. No one ever lost anything by learning.

I was waiting for this comment. I too am very glad the dealers aren't that serious about the premium in cherrypicking!

WildIdea

I can scan over most series to see any doubling on lettering or digits or misplaces digits in dentles then look them up is I see anything noteworthy. I don't really look up certain particular varieties then hunt for them but I don't consider myself a true cherry picker. Lots of things to miss about the coin market. Heck, that's why I'm here!

I have seen things like bulk rolls of Morgans listed as "AU -30 dollars" and flipping one over to see a CC mint mark. Is that a dealer mistake or a cherry pick? Maybe a common date Morgan in a doily 64 listed as a buy it now for 60 dollars. I've seen lots of this stuff, I'm sure you have too, it just happens. Happens if your involved with coins and shouldn't sideline every coin afraid someone may embarrass you. Just hope a loss isn't brutal and a gain doesn't lay the other guy out. Just shows ya that even dealers that try to know can miss stuff. There's always the risk of getting distracted and blowing a big deal getting lost in the weeds trying to protect every single piece. Jumping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

SoCalBigMark

After the 100'th morgan I bothered to check was not a valuable VAM I stopped looking.

joeykoins

Originally posted by: SoCalBigMark
After the 100'th morgan I bothered to check was not a valuable VAM I stopped looking.

Yeah but that 101th Morgan could have been the famous, "Scarface"! Do you know how many Lincoln cents (Wheaties and/or Memorials) I've searched through in my collecting days? Sure It's tiresome but the work can be worth the reward.

MICHAELDIXON

I have owned two full time shops and I can tell you from experience that I did not have the time to check every coin for variety that came into the shop. I checked for major varieties and the top VAMS, but with the volume that came in it was impossible to know and check everything. Being on the other side of the counter, as a dealer, would give you a different perspective about the time requirements and how you would choose to utilize that time.

PutTogether

Originally posted by: SoCalBigMark
After the 100'th morgan I bothered to check was not a valuable VAM I stopped looking.

A million times this.

Bob1951

You have to remember that most dealers are generalists and deal in all coins, even foreign coins which most generalist US dealers know nothing at all about so they buy them for a lot less than market, While most collectors are specialists looking for only certain things within their collecting interest.



I, for instance, know nothing about most VAM's and would buy them as common Morgan dollars. (I am not a dealer). So will a lot of dealers. Or they will buy Morgans at the regular rate and have a collector search them for VAM's that are worth more and give them a good deal on them.



No one knows everything. I bought a roll of BU 1960 Washington quarters with type B reverses for $130.00 when the silver value was $120.00. The roll was even labeled type B!! My point is that the dealer still made his profit and was happy with it.He did not know what type B meant. He most likely bought them from an estate.

keets

I work for a dealer in a medium sized shop and like Michael Dixon and others have said, it is really a matter of time. the OP and others seem unwilling to acknowledge that simple fact. to illustrate the point, we had three large deals this week that totaled about $50k and included bullion, junk Silver, Walkers, Morgans, Proof/Mint Sets, Canadian, etc.........................you have to understand the amount of time involved in just making the purchase, processing everything and then getting it all ready for resale --- all the time remembering that we have a store to run: answering the phone, manning the retail counter, getting stuff ready for wholesalers, packing up for shows, all the day-to-day stuff. I have learned that the biggest enemy of a dealer is time.

Nap

Don't forget that there is a benefit to your business in letting collectors sift through low value inventory to try to find some treasure, keeps them coming back and throws them a bone here and there. Not every item needs to be sold for maximal profit to benefit business.

ebaybuyer

if one does the math it becomes quite clear that the dealer has a "clue" how to keep his (or her) business profitable. it probably makes more sense to allow people the occasional $5 cherry pick rather than paying someone $10 an hour to search for that $5 cherry pick

ctf_error_coins

As a major error coin dealer, I could care less on the vast majority of varieties. Could care less about all RPMs and most DDs.

I only carry coins with major errors visible with no magnification.

Wabbit2313

Originally posted by: keets
I work for a dealer in a medium sized shop and like Michael Dixon and others have said, it is really a matter of time. the OP and others seem unwilling to acknowledge that simple fact. to illustrate the point, we had three large deals this week that totaled about $50k and included bullion, junk Silver, Walkers, Morgans, Proof/Mint Sets, Canadian, etc.........................you have to understand the amount of time involved in just making the purchase, processing everything and then getting it all ready for resale --- all the time remembering that we have a store to run: answering the phone, manning the retail counter, getting stuff ready for wholesalers, packing up for shows, all the day-to-day stuff. I have learned that the biggest enemy of a dealer is time.

A pawn shop got a 50K coin deal? I need to start visiting pawn shops more! (Assuming you are still working at one of course.)

Insider2

This is common. Every dealer I know has a room full of stuff to go through that keeps piling up. So much to do and so little TIME. I often cherrypick Top-100 Morgan's from the rolls of pre-1921 coins one dealer sells. I pay him $40 each for the BU's and we replace the coin in the roll. He could care less as most variety collectors would rather find the coin than pay the "going rate" for the attributed coin.



All my life I have seen front page photos of new discovery coins sitting on the stack of NN or CW he is selling while he has one of the same coins unattributed in his case. Most of these guys are too busy making a living to bother to look for doubled dies, etc.



When I was a coin shop manager, I had a fellow come into the shop and buy a VG+ 1802 half cent. I got curious as to why he would want that particular coin that had set in the case for months. After buying the coin, I got an education...LOL. After that I spent 2-3 overtime hours in the shop checking the newps.

ebaybuyer

three deals "that totaled" $50k isn't the same as "a $50k deal" three deals is three times the work of one deal actually

joeykoins

My opinion, after this thread, many dealers reading these posts will make them take a second look on all the money that can be had, instead of letting it go by the wayside. Despite, how much time it may take them. Mentioned in an earlier post, I agree, by some dealers not caring (about varieties) it will allow a more vast of customers to their shop that do care! Resulting in more business for the owner.

ctf_error_coins

Originally posted by: joeykoins
My opinion, after this thread, many dealers reading these posts will make them take a second look on all the money that can be had, instead of letting it go by the wayside. Despite, how much time it may take them. Mentioned in an earlier post, I agree, by some dealers not caring (about varieties) it will allow a more vast of customers to their shop that do care! Resulting in more business for the owner.

No... TIME, TIME, TIME .......

Mission16

What is your definition of "well-known varieties/errors"?

I'm thinking that outside of the obvious ones: 1955 DDO cent, 1942/41 dimes, 1960 small dates cents etc. most dealers just aren't going to invest the time in knowledge to learn about what's out there.

coinkat

There are varieties waiting to be discovered. There are several issues with such coins: 1. Creating the interest and demand for a new variety; 2. Getting the variety into the mainstream of collecting; and I'll skip the third so I don't get in trouble

Kccoin

The couple of shop owners that I frequent could care less about varieties. If they cant see it with are their old eyes, what does it matter? They are there to sell coins. These dealers, like the ones described, sound like a cherrypickers dream. Especially if they let you physically look through their stock. Chances are that if you are buying, they are making money.



To the OP, out of curiousity, when and if you find a Superbird unattributed, what would be a fair price to pay the d umb dealer for letting you cherrypick?

Kccoin

The couple of shop owners that I frequent could care less about varieties. If they cant see it with are their old eyes, what does it matter? They are there to sell coins. These dealers, like the ones described, sound like a cherrypickers dream. Especially if they let you physically look through their stock. Chances are that if you are buying, they are making money.



To the OP, out of curiousity, when and if you find a Superbird unattributed, what would be a fair price to pay the d umb dealer for letting you cherrypick?

CyStater

I think you are confusing dealers that don't know major varieties with dealers that don't feel like working ten hours sifting through clad Kennedy's to find one coin with a $30 premium. What a terrible business plan and use of time.

291fifth

The minor variety market has always struck me as an illusion created by collectors who don't have enough money to play in the major leagues. The minor varieties can be fun to search for but most appeal to a market of cheapskates who only "make their own".

TwoSides2aCoin

Originally posted by: 291fifth
The minor variety market has always struck me as an illusion created by collectors who don't have enough money to play in the major leagues. The minor varieties can be fun to search for but most appeal to a market of cheapskates who only "make their own".

Sorry. I don't mean to laugh at terms like " Illusion created by collectors...", and "cheapskates who only make their own". But, they're funny (terms).