Lack of action by NGC regarding fake Swiss coin

Greig

I encountered a frustrating situation last week with NGC and was wondering if any of you ever had a similar issue with them. I would have posted about this matter earlier, but was traveling until last night and didn't have my PCGS log-in information with me.

I noticed a 1901 Swiss 2 franc on Ebay two Thursday ago. It was listed by a Hong Kong dealer with a good feedback score. The coin (Ebay number 322074752866) was listed as a PCGS MS 63, but the photo showed an NGC MS 63 coin (which was an immediate red flag). Those of you who are familiar with Swiss coins know that the 1901 is a very rare coin, with mint state copies going for 5 figures. The coin looked funny (like it was copper-nickel). As it happened, I was at CICF the next day and showed it to Marcel Haeberling, a very reputable and knowledgeable Swiss dealer, who said he thought it was an obvious fake. The NGC number was 2608363-003 and it was noted as "Deleted" on the NGC certification verification site.

Fortunately (or so I thought), NGC staff were present at the show, so I approached them about the coin. It seemed to me that there might be a fake coin with a fake NGC holder being offered on Ebay that NGC might want to deal with. I spoke to a woman who was very helpful, took the Ebay and NGC numbers, sent a note off to NGC HQ and told me to check back as I was leaving the show. I did so and she told me NGC was taking steps to remove the Ebay listing. Great, I thought, one less fake to plague our community.

But, to my surprise, when I checked on the coin on Saturday and Sunday, it was still up for sale on Ebay. Last Monday AM, I called customer service at NGC and asked them what was going on. The NGC customer service guy I spoke with was familiar with the coin and the issue of it being an apparent fake. I asked him to see what was going on at NGC's end to terminate the listing (which at this point had 24 hours to go) and to let me know what NGC had done.

Well, and you can probably guess what happened next, the coin was not deleted and finally sold for $2750.00. I would be happy to pay that little for a genuine 1901 2 franc in MS 63 (that amount is about 10% of its real value). I see no evidence of NGC doing anything about the situation and no one from NGC ever contacted me afterwards. I tried going on Ebay's site, but couldn't figure out how to report the coin (my bad, likely).

What frankly shocks me about the situation is NGC's apparent lack of concern about a fake being in a NGC holder which itself might be a fake. I don't know exactly what NGC means when it says a certification is "deleted," but that term certainly suggests something isn't quite right.

So, somebody with a lot of money got what seemed to be a terrific bargain and the fraudsters in China win again.

What do you guys think? I'd link the Ebay listing and NGC certification if I knew how, but you should be able to look at them using the numbers above.

JCMhouston

I think you are bashing NGC for something well outside their control. They have zero influence over what eBay does once they report something. The problem is more eBay purposely pleading ignorance and allowing fakes to be continuously listed.

brg5658

Originally posted by: JCMhouston

I think you are bashing NGC for something well outside their control. They have zero influence over what eBay does once they report something. The problem is more eBay purposely pleading ignorance and allowing fakes to be continuously listed.

I agree with JCM.



There is only so much NGC can do -- eBay is the culprit here. Your best best is reporting it to eBay through their online mechanisms and/or sending a note yourself to the seller. At any given time, there are probably 2 dozen fake PCGS holders up on eBay also. Neither NGC nor PCGS have the person-power to police eBay listings.

Greig

I understand your point, but NGC should certainly have an interest in assuring that fakes in their holders are not being sold and, in any case, I was told at the CICF show that they were taking action to get the coin delisted on Ebay. It's one thing for a private collector to report a fake, I would think it's something else when one of the top three certification companies makes that same type of report.

If they got back to me (and I asked them to) and said that they reported the coin to Ebay and were not able to effect its being delisted, that's fine: they did all they could.

I think I will follow up with them on Monday to see what happened. If I hear anything more, I will post a reply to this thread.

In any case, thanks for your response.

Greig

I agree that PCGS/NGC haven't the resources to police Ebay generally. In this case, though, they didn't have to do that - somebody found the coin and told them about it. If they weren't going to do anything with that information, fine, but tell me that. Their customer service rep told me they were taking action when I left CICF Friday afternoon.

I do need to figure out how to report fakes more easily to Ebay.

Thanks.

brg5658

Originally posted by: Greig

Well, and you can probably guess what happened next, the coin was not deleted and finally sold for $2750.00. I would be happy to pay that little for a genuine 1901 2 franc in MS 63 (that amount is about 10% of its real value).

You also seem to be either a bit confused or prone to hyperbole, as a 1901 2 Franc in an NGC MS63 holder sold for $3760 at the CICF show in the Heritage Auction a matter of days ago. Thus, it seems, what this apparent fake sold for is about 73% of its "real value" according to that result. You implied its "real value" is around $27,500.

Greig

I wasn't aware of the Heritage coin - good to know. My opinion was based on Muenzen Revue, where "unz" is listed at 13,000 Swiss francs and "stempelglanz" is 25,000 Swiss francs. I am sorry if my comment was a sign of being prone to hyperbole. I would certainly agree that the marketplace is the best place to determine the value of a coin.

Thanks for the comment.

Exbrit

Ebay will act on fake coins sometimes after the auction ends by not allowing payment. NGC updates their cert database to alert customers of known fakes. Delete or contact customer service. Neither are doing enough to stop the fraudsters.

TwoKopeiki

Do we know it was not bought by NGC? While it's frustrating to see play out, NGC did confirm the lack of authenticity of the coin and removed it from the certification look-up page. I would also think that if the new buyer, or any future owner approached NGC with this coin, they would buy it back.

Greig

Would NGC buy it (or buy it back) if it were determined to be in a fake NGC holder?

I don't know whether this coin was a fake in a genuine holder or a fake in a fake holder. I would think they wouldn't honor a guarantee if the holder were fake. That was part of my reason for letting them know about this coin, since it was not clear of the holder was real.

I am now definitely going to follow up with NGC on Monday to see if there's anything new here. I'll post what I find out.

Thanks!

TwoKopeiki

Ah, so we don't know if the holder is genuine (but the coin fake and as such NGC deleted it from their certification lookup) or if both the holder and coin are fake?

Exbrit

Originally posted by: TwoKopeiki
Do we know it was not bought by NGC? While it's frustrating to see play out, NGC did confirm the lack of authenticity of the coin and removed it from the certification look-up page. I would also think that if the new buyer, or any future owner approached NGC with this coin, they would buy it back.

I do not believe NGC would buy the coin if they new it was fake and had it listed in their cert database as such. When I said eBay and NGC are not doing enough, I accidentally left out PCGS. I believe all three should work together more closely and go after these crooks. Maybe they are - but there are mor e and more of the fraudsters out there.

CIVITAS

If the cert# is listed as DELETED in the NGC database, that assuredly means that the holder in the ebay auction is fake.



I presume DELETED should mean that either the original label or the original holder was returned to them.



So either, a geniune coin was cracked out and the label returned to NGC for census report adjustment, or possibly a forgery was discovered in a geniune NGC holder, and they took it back under their guarantee. Either way, a genuine holder with this label number should not be out in the marketplace right now.

CIVITAS

I should also mention that I report MANY obvious fake coins to eBay that never get pulled/cancelled.