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HA Auction

ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
In one word - weak. Especially the non floor. Stuff is being given away.

Comments

  • StorkStork Posts: 5,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a bidder, I hope that holds true a little longer. Is the dollar particularly strong right now? I haven't checked lately.

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not the stuff I was watching. I think it depends what you were watching...then again, the really nice stuff already sold in the earlier auctions. I was a bit underwhelmed...
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Compared to the Rauch auction, where a superb 1486 Guldiner hammered at e32,000. image

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: EVillageProwler

    Compared to the Rauch auction, where a superb 1486 Guldiner hammered at e32,000. image




    That's close to the highest mark I have seen these go for with juice.



  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: brg5658

    Not the stuff I was watching. I think it depends what you were watching...then again, the really nice stuff already sold in the earlier auctions. I was a bit underwhelmed...




    Conclusion - condition any consignments with floor auction positioning. Back of the bus seems to get a very light following.



  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zohar
    Originally posted by: EVillageProwler
    Compared to the Rauch auction, where a superb 1486 Guldiner hammered at e32,000. image


    That's close to the highest mark I have seen these go for with juice.



    I imagine it would make your heart palpitate a bit. Certainly would make mine...

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭
    Impulse buy today since interest seemed low. 1770 - German States - Speyer 1/2 taler. 1 year type issued by the bishop - mintage of 5,000. PCGS AU-58.



    imageimage

  • JCMhoustonJCMhouston Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭
    Nice, I had that on my watch list but decided to hold off for some British pieces.
  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wish I had the same sentiment. All of the lots I was interested in all received very competitive bids. Most sold for +/- 10% of what I was expecting. I saw a few go high and low.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zohar

    In one word - weak. Especially the non floor. Stuff is being given away.




    I put in a bid of $320 (including juice) for a coin valued between $100-$150, thinking I don't even need to watch the auction...coin sold for nearly $800. This was my story all night, so I am not sure that all material went for cheap prices. I did manage to win 1 coin, also at my max bid.



    I was going to post the exact opposite of your post -- that coins sold for very strong $$ but quickly realized that it might have only been coins that I was interested in.
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was watching some of the endless lots and saw many go for 50-60% of estimate. The couple I bid on and lost went about IMO 25% high and as they were not rarities and show occasionally thankfully showed discipline and let them go.
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I stand firm with my observation. This auction was a flop. I also heard this directly from 2 separate consignors. My 2 pickups were far under market and at top of the quality spectrum.
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zohar

    I stand firm with my observation. This auction was a flop. I also heard this directly from 2 separate consignors. My 2 pickups were far under market and at top of the quality spectrum.




    I think you simply collect in one of the areas that was a flop? There were 2,329 lots...I don't think any generalizations about "flop" or "no flop" can probably be made, as it depends highly on what you were watching or interested in.



    The pieces I was watching almost all went for high estimate or well above high estimate.



    EDIT: Upon further review, it seems the German States material in general went rather reasonably. I wouldn't be complaining about "weak" though, as a collector -- I like weak. That means I can buy more. image

    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I bought 2 European Crowns - one Italian and one Italian. I was tracking 40 of them. They all went under market. If I compare to Kunker sales (recent) or even Stacks, they sold at 50% of value, and this with a strong dollar. Ancients went very low as well.



    If the European Crown market is on a downturn you have a point.



    I am not complaining... I have no dog in this fight as I did not consign to them... yet I like to track markets and auction houses. One day we will all consign. As a buyer, I love low prices for non commonly available pieces as I could not compete in Europe for these. As a consignor, I would be very cautious. I believe many pieces went unsold comparably (have a look) as a result of very high reserves which also indicate caution by sellers.







  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: ZoharI believe many pieces went unsold comparably (have a look) as a result of very high reserves which also indicate caution by sellers.




    I think there has been some "funny business" in the setting of reserves in some of the recent Heritage sales. There were two pieces I was watching and seriously considering with reserves a few weeks before the CICF auction of:



    March 26 email:

    Piece 1: $1250

    Piece 2: $1000



    Then, just a few days later, the reserves of both pieces were bumped up considerably --



    April 4 email:

    Piece 1: $2300 (84% increase)

    Piece 2: $1800 (80% increase)



    Has anyone else noticed this? I really hope that Heritage hasn't started fiddling with things based on the meta-data information they have on number of watchers and "interest" in items. I'm not making any accusations here, but I'm sure not very likely to bid on items when I see reserves moved around like this. It seems very fishy to me.



    Brandon





    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had the same exact experience which turned me off. My prelim bids suddenly became WAY below reserve level. I checked out at that point.
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zohar

    I had the same exact experience which turned me off. My prelim bids suddenly became WAY below reserve level. I checked out at that point.




    It's a bit disturbing isn't it? I have the emails of MyTrackedLots to prove that this is happening too. I'm not just having a mental lapse. image



    Seems to be a move toward reserves set at full retail. I hope that doesn't become the norm. I'm just waiting for the day already when HA raises their juice to 20%. Seems the greed just takes over the hobby...



    /Rant over/



    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If my eBay seller habits are at similar to those reserve prices, then there may be increasing fear that there won't be enough bidders or strong enough bidding for a coin to reach 'market value'.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yup, looks like there was doubt about reaching the perceived market value.
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just looked at the Mexico 8R portrait prices and they seem to be pretty soft (but in-line with the overall trend for the series over the past 6 months)
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think there are substantial price differentials depending on the country. The handful of lots I have been watching thus far today have all sold for above top estimate, a couple by 2x top estimate. Of course, it's possible I'm watching the coins that everyone else is also interested in.



    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, when it comes to Mexico - portraits were not the focus of this auction. There was a large collection of Republican Cap'n'Ray 8 Reales for sale, so the focus was probably on that. Not sure how well it did, since I don't follow that series. Perhaps someone can chime in on those.
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh, and WCG - loving that 1/2T!
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TwoKopeiki

    Well, when it comes to Mexico - portraits were not the focus of this auction. There was a large collection of Republican Cap'n'Ray 8 Reales for sale, so the focus was probably on that. Not sure how well it did, since I don't follow that series. Perhaps someone can chime in on those.




    Well, the Cap'n'Ray I was watching sold for $940, estimate was 300-400.



    But I realize, I likely just have taste similar to what others like.



    image



    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • marcmoishmarcmoish Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think there are substantial price differentials depending on the country. The handful of lots I have been watching thus far today have all sold for above top estimate, a couple by 2x top estimate. Of course, it's possible I'm watching the coins that everyone else is also interested in.



    agreed - the few choice pcs I was chasing and bid on went for double or way over what I was willing to pay for it.



    For example an 1860/59 Mex 8R in 65 went for over 2K. Way over what I imagined but that piece was a GEM - I thought I can rip it image



    So yes the dreck did not sell or sold for reduced prices and the good stuff will always garner strong bids .



    And WCN I like the reverse of that ..nice newp
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Folks,

    It is common practice for auction houses to allow consignors (who've negotiated this right) to adjust their reserves after the Internet bidding period has begun (but not after the official Internet bidding period has ended, which is usually 24h prior to the floor session).

    At NYINC 2015, the HA sale did very poorly with many quality lots selling near open. As a result, the consignors to the Stack's auction put in protection reserves. Zohar got lucky with his Graz 2T because it wasn't a dealer consignment (it was fresh!) and not protected. Yes, he paid a non-trivial amount for it, but not nearly at full retail considering the underbidder was likely another dealer.

    The lesson to be learned here is: do not do Internet bidding until the last minute, and only if you must because you know you cannot bid in live session. If a dealer consignor sees that there is already a lot of pre-live bidding interest, then he can simply reserve a bit higher than he would've originally planned. Yes, he is taking a gamble of turning off some prospective bidders, but he figures that he won't be turning off all of them and some of them will likely still bid because of auction frenzy and similar reasons.

    My approach is to track, and only track, until the last minute. For CNG, their system is annoying in that online tracking means I have to place an actual bid. For them, I've resorted to offline tracking. It's more work, but not really a hardship. (Offline tracking = mental note, or a piece of paper that I keep handy, or some electronic equivalent.) In fact, I am doing offline tracking of less than 10 lots in CNG 102.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • jgennjgenn Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This afternoon, I got the one lot that I wanted the most for just under the high end of the estimate but a little over w/juice. Do you think that the auction house's estimate is supposed to represent the final price to the buyer?
  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jgenn
    This afternoon, I got the one lot that I wanted the most for just under the high end of the estimate but a little over w/juice. Do you think that the auction house's estimate is supposed to represent the final price to the buyer?


    I think the estimate shouldn't tell you how much to bid, or tell you if you bid too much. It can be wildly inaccurate, with or without juice.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: EVillageProwler

    Folks,



    It is common practice for auction houses to allow consignors (who've negotiated this right) to adjust their reserves after the Internet bidding period has begun (but not after the official Internet bidding period has ended, which is usually 24h prior to the floor session).



    At NYINC 2015, the HA sale did very poorly with many quality lots selling near open. As a result, the consignors to the Stack's auction put in protection reserves. Zohar got lucky with his Graz 2T because it wasn't a dealer consignment (it was fresh!) and not protected. Yes, he paid a non-trivial amount for it, but not nearly at full retail considering the underbidder was likely another dealer.



    The lesson to be learned here is: do not do Internet bidding until the last minute, and only if you must because you know you cannot bid in live session. If a dealer consignor sees that there is already a lot of pre-live bidding interest, then he can simply reserve a bit higher than he would've originally planned. Yes, he is taking a gamble of turning off some prospective bidders, but he figures that he won't be turning off all of them and some of them will likely still bid because of auction frenzy and similar reasons.



    My approach is to track, and only track, until the last minute. For CNG, their system is annoying in that online tracking means I have to place an actual bid. For them, I've resorted to offline tracking. It's more work, but not really a hardship. (Offline tracking = mental note, or a piece of paper that I keep handy, or some electronic equivalent.) In fact, I am doing offline tracking of less than 10 lots in CNG 102.



    EVP




    Never thought of the implications of tracking and pre bidding in such a way. Will apply this mindset going forward.



  • StorkStork Posts: 5,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: EVillageProwler

    Folks,



    It is common practice for auction houses to allow consignors (who've negotiated this right) to adjust their reserves after the Internet bidding period has begun (but not after the official Internet bidding period has ended, which is usually 24h prior to the floor session).



    At NYINC 2015, the HA sale did very poorly with many quality lots selling near open. As a result, the consignors to the Stack's auction put in protection reserves. Zohar got lucky with his Graz 2T because it wasn't a dealer consignment (it was fresh!) and not protected. Yes, he paid a non-trivial amount for it, but not nearly at full retail considering the underbidder was likely another dealer.



    The lesson to be learned here is: do not do Internet bidding until the last minute, and only if you must because you know you cannot bid in live session. If a dealer consignor sees that there is already a lot of pre-live bidding interest, then he can simply reserve a bit higher than he would've originally planned. Yes, he is taking a gamble of turning off some prospective bidders, but he figures that he won't be turning off all of them and some of them will likely still bid because of auction frenzy and similar reasons.



    My approach is to track, and only track, until the last minute. For CNG, their system is annoying in that online tracking means I have to place an actual bid. For them, I've resorted to offline tracking. It's more work, but not really a hardship. (Offline tracking = mental note, or a piece of paper that I keep handy, or some electronic equivalent.) In fact, I am doing offline tracking of less than 10 lots in CNG 102.



    EVP




    Very interesting, and good to keep in mind. I hate the idea of missing out due to internet issues (when both teenagers are at home the wifi gets very sluggish at times...), so I do tend to bid early. I may have to rethink this, and use my data plan instead!




  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I never bid before the live auction unless I absolutely know I will not have access to internet. I will now rethink whether I use Heritage's tracking button, as this seems to be a possibility of being used as a mechanism to jack up the reserves.



    For other sites with dysfunctional or rudimentary tracking mechanisms, I have made a habit of creating lists of links to specific items and emailing them to myself. This gives me quick access to items, and also allows me to track any changes in items I am interested in based on additions or subtractions. In Gmail this is particularly nice, as it lumps together emails into conversations -- so easy to add a label to and keep organized.



    Why doesn't Heritage schedule their bigger auctions on weekends? It seems silly to have an online auction in the middle of the day on a Tuesday. People who aren't dealers have day jobs -- and they are missing out on a lot of potential real time bids from people who aren't able to be logged into Heritage Live from work. I've never understood having online auctions during weekday regular business hours -- unless their only audience is dealers.



    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • jgennjgenn Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was spot checking a few items I was tracking, not necessary for bidding but to see how they sold and I am shocked at the results for the Spanish 8 Escudos, starting at lot 30868. These are AU graded gold selling for VF20 prices (according to Krause).



    Note to self: sell in January, buy in April.
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brandon,

    I don't think using HA's tracking facility will hurt you. In my earlier post, I was specifically referring to actually bidding activity. The number of trackers doesn't necessarily translate to strong bids. I regularly track a large number of lots in HA and Stack's auctions, US and world, because I am simply curious how the lots perform.

    BTW, the converse (fewer trackers results in lower bidding activity) is usually true though...

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • danglendanglen Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭
    My 1937 Great Britain Gold Specimen set went for $14,000 plus the juice. A lot better than I expected image
    danglen

    My Website

    "Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    [iSeems to be a move toward reserves set at full retail. I hope that doesn't become the norm: TwoKopeiki

    it is the norm for quite some time with European auction houses.


    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TwoKopeiki
    Well, when it comes to Mexico - portraits were not the focus of this auction. There was a large collection of Republican Cap'n'Ray 8 Reales for sale, so the focus was probably on that. Not sure how well it did, since I don't follow that series. Perhaps someone can chime in on those.


    I was there Mike Dunigan bought a lot of coins out of the Foxlair Cap and Rays collection.

    Seemed they were all better dates.

    He wrote 'the book"

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How many surprisingly weak sales do you have to see, one after another, before you think it's the market and not the auction?

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: bidask

    Originally posted by: TwoKopeiki

    Well, when it comes to Mexico - portraits were not the focus of this auction. There was a large collection of Republican Cap'n'Ray 8 Reales for sale, so the focus was probably on that. Not sure how well it did, since I don't follow that series. Perhaps someone can chime in on those.




    I was there Mike Dunigan bought a lot of coins out of the Foxlair Cap and Rays collection.



    Seemed they were all better dates.



    He wrote 'the book"







    I thought the cap and ray 8Rs did ok, particularly the scarcer/rarer ones. I felt Dunigan was bidding up the prices close to retail on the lots that others were winning.



    In a way, it's good to have market support like that....

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: MrEureka

    How many surprisingly weak sales do you have to see, one after another, before you think it's the market and not the auction?







    Not when compared to recent Rauch or Kunker... huge arbitrage



  • dizzleccdizzlecc Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭
    The Cap and Rays in the HA auction were a mixed bag. About half sold above the high estimate, while some missed badly closing around 40% of the estimate.

    The collection was from a variety specialist and several were very scare and the top of population, with that said, the high dollar coins, $2K and above seemed to struggle. While the collector range, $200 -$1K did very well.

    I did get a couple from the floor auction around the high end estimate and was blown out on a couple from the internet only auction.

    The market has matured and will pay up for coins with eye appeal and in the right grade for the look of the coin but coins with issues and seemingly over graded are more difficult to draw top bids.
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