New Notes from Valkenburg and some Thoughts
rbethea
Posts: 134 ✭✭✭
I went to the Valkenburg Paper Money Show this weekend. It's only about 2 hours from my home so an easy day trip, and it was a beautiful day! In summary, this show was slower than previous years and there was some blatant empty space where even last year dealers were. Foot traffic seemed down to me as well. I didn't see so many collectors, but mostly dealers, continuing a trend I noted last year of this becoming a bulk-buying show (lots of dealers with common bricks and stuff like that). Really nice stuff continues to be astronomically priced and I saw several dealers with Joel Schaefer at their table (from LKCA) consigning notes (I presume for Memphis).
A disturbing trend that I saw more of this year were dealers unscrupulously marking notes UNC even with obvious (or not so obvious) bends on the paper. I was burned by this and it has me pretty steamed (on a multi-thousand dolar note; I'm in the process of contacting the dealer). There are no table lamps at this show, unless the dealer brings them, so inspecting notes is less than optimal. As I've noted before here on the board, this continues to be a major issue - where many world dealers and collectors view an UNC note in the strict sense of UNC but where the grading companies have brought in a new, grayer, definition of UNC allowing for corner bends and stuff like that. When will the IBNS step in? Anyway, that's a conversation for another time.
I did pick up two monsters. Netherlands Pick-68 and Pick-69. These notes were issued in denominations of 1, 2 1/2, 10, 25, 50, and 100 gulden with different colors for the obverse. Despite the usual trend of the highest denomination being the rarest, in this series, an UNC 50 gulden note will bring multiples of an UNC 100 gulden note every time. The 50 gulden is the key here. All of the notes feature a lovely portrait of Queen Wilhelmina. If it isn't obvious from the designs, these were printed by the ABNCo.
I also picked up this little guy. A gorgeous design issued in 2003, just prior to Kazakhstan's multiple-consecutive-IBNS-banknote-of-the-year designs a few years later. This was the highest denomination (and remained until last year) but is also eclipsed in rarity by it's little brother, the 5000 tenge note (both the regular issues and the commemorative issue).
Georgian notes are some of my favorites and I picked up the two highest denominations from the 1995 series (very similar to the latest issue with some minor modifications, prior to the brand new series being issued right now).
The 50 lari note features Queen Tamara on the front, a queen of Georgia in the 12th century.
The 100 lari note has on the front a bust of Rustaveli, a 12th century Georgian poet.
The last note I'll share is the 2nd denomination of the first issue put into circulation by the newly independent government of Algeria. They issued this 1964 set of notes as the maiden voyage for the Central Bank of Algeria. These were printed in denominations of 5, 10, 50, and 100 dinars, all dated 1.1.1964. The key is the 5 dinar, which is available, very very tough to find in UNC. Next in rarity is the 50, then the 10, then the 100 in terms of finding UNC examples. I had the 50 and 100, here is the 10 dinar note:
Concluding thoughts....I've become so frustrated with buying expensive notes because of the seeming necessity of dealers to inflate their grades and their prices and the attempt to take advantage of the unsuspecting collector. In this regard, 3rd party grading can help. I'm frustrated with asking prices not aligning (not being in the same universe) with auction/market values, and I'm frustrated with the decrease of the hobby as...well, a hobby. It seemed more relaxed and laid back at Memphis last time I was there, when I was living in the U.S. - that this is supposed to be a fun pastime, and I hope that atmosphere is there when I return to the States. What this has led me to is a real disdain for some of my favorite areas of collecting, where I've built cornerstones of my collection. I'm going to change some of my focus in collecting in response to this to try to avoid have enmity for this great hobby.
In the mean time I hope you enjoy these notes as much as I do and I apologize that this is such a long post. I have a lot of thoughts running through my mind about this and I appreciate you letting me (maybe against your will!
) air them out.
A disturbing trend that I saw more of this year were dealers unscrupulously marking notes UNC even with obvious (or not so obvious) bends on the paper. I was burned by this and it has me pretty steamed (on a multi-thousand dolar note; I'm in the process of contacting the dealer). There are no table lamps at this show, unless the dealer brings them, so inspecting notes is less than optimal. As I've noted before here on the board, this continues to be a major issue - where many world dealers and collectors view an UNC note in the strict sense of UNC but where the grading companies have brought in a new, grayer, definition of UNC allowing for corner bends and stuff like that. When will the IBNS step in? Anyway, that's a conversation for another time.
I did pick up two monsters. Netherlands Pick-68 and Pick-69. These notes were issued in denominations of 1, 2 1/2, 10, 25, 50, and 100 gulden with different colors for the obverse. Despite the usual trend of the highest denomination being the rarest, in this series, an UNC 50 gulden note will bring multiples of an UNC 100 gulden note every time. The 50 gulden is the key here. All of the notes feature a lovely portrait of Queen Wilhelmina. If it isn't obvious from the designs, these were printed by the ABNCo.
I also picked up this little guy. A gorgeous design issued in 2003, just prior to Kazakhstan's multiple-consecutive-IBNS-banknote-of-the-year designs a few years later. This was the highest denomination (and remained until last year) but is also eclipsed in rarity by it's little brother, the 5000 tenge note (both the regular issues and the commemorative issue).
Georgian notes are some of my favorites and I picked up the two highest denominations from the 1995 series (very similar to the latest issue with some minor modifications, prior to the brand new series being issued right now).
The 50 lari note features Queen Tamara on the front, a queen of Georgia in the 12th century.
The 100 lari note has on the front a bust of Rustaveli, a 12th century Georgian poet.
The last note I'll share is the 2nd denomination of the first issue put into circulation by the newly independent government of Algeria. They issued this 1964 set of notes as the maiden voyage for the Central Bank of Algeria. These were printed in denominations of 5, 10, 50, and 100 dinars, all dated 1.1.1964. The key is the 5 dinar, which is available, very very tough to find in UNC. Next in rarity is the 50, then the 10, then the 100 in terms of finding UNC examples. I had the 50 and 100, here is the 10 dinar note:
Concluding thoughts....I've become so frustrated with buying expensive notes because of the seeming necessity of dealers to inflate their grades and their prices and the attempt to take advantage of the unsuspecting collector. In this regard, 3rd party grading can help. I'm frustrated with asking prices not aligning (not being in the same universe) with auction/market values, and I'm frustrated with the decrease of the hobby as...well, a hobby. It seemed more relaxed and laid back at Memphis last time I was there, when I was living in the U.S. - that this is supposed to be a fun pastime, and I hope that atmosphere is there when I return to the States. What this has led me to is a real disdain for some of my favorite areas of collecting, where I've built cornerstones of my collection. I'm going to change some of my focus in collecting in response to this to try to avoid have enmity for this great hobby.
In the mean time I hope you enjoy these notes as much as I do and I apologize that this is such a long post. I have a lot of thoughts running through my mind about this and I appreciate you letting me (maybe against your will!
) air them out. Check out my world paper money collection at papermoney.x10.mx
0
Comments
I think everyone grades their own notes with a certain inability to see flaws, bends or other defects. It's always been this way and dealers being sales people are naturally inclined to think best of and promote their own wares.
Try not to be discouraged and remember the motto on the seal of Netherlands notes!
Sounds you you need to bring your own light with you so you can inspect the note thoroughly before paying the big bucks.
Really like your notes!!!
Jim61
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16566561 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps and TheRock!
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16977961.
Looking for $1 CU FRN 99999961 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps!
Looking for $50 FRN 00000061
I find this one to be intriguing. What type of mythical creature is that on the back?
Montani Semper Liberi (Mountaineers are always free)
Interesting notes!
I find this one to be intriguing. What type of mythical creature is that on the back?
According to the Russian Wikipedia it's a Sagittarius from a Georgian painting of the 12 century.
Very nice notes.
1. Any The Zanzibar Government note in any condition.
Why should dealers have to mark their inventory in line with auction prices (which you call market values)? The dealers have to pay overhead, table rent, and lots of other costs. They are not obligated to match prices in major auctions where often items fall through the cracks. You seem eager to whine about a minor corner bend or some such thing as making the note somehow not uncirculated. There are degrees of uncirculated. You seem to expect any note marked "Unc" to be like super gem. That is unreasonable. What do you expect IBNS to do? You seem to be a rather sophisticated collector based on your posts, and yet you claim dealers are out to screw "unsuspecting" collector. Maybe you should try being a dealer.
Nobody is obligated to do anything. But today, when every person with an internet connection can bid on any auction on the glob, maybe those dealers should adjust their prices if they want to sell. Collectible banknotes are not first necessity, advanced collectors know that the key word here is patience. For example, one dealer was selling 10 pounds Libya 1952, quite rare note. He wanted for it 4000 $. So I waited a year and I bought at an auction the whole set (!) of 1952 for 1800$ out of the door.
1. Any The Zanzibar Government note in any condition.
Why should dealers have to mark their inventory in line with auction prices (which you call market values)? The dealers have to pay overhead, table rent, and lots of other costs. They are not obligated to match prices in major auctions where often items fall through the cracks. You seem eager to whine about a minor corner bend or some such thing as making the note somehow not uncirculated. There are degrees of uncirculated. You seem to expect any note marked "Unc" to be like super gem. That is unreasonable. What do you expect IBNS to do? You seem to be a rather sophisticated collector based on your posts, and yet you claim dealers are out to screw "unsuspecting" collector. Maybe you should try being a dealer.
The short answer to your initial query is, they don't. But I'll try to give you a fuller and reasonable answer. You only focused on where I criticized certain dealers for being, what I called, unreasonable in their prices and grading. First with grading, what you missed was where I said, "As I've noted before here on the board, this continues to be a major issue - where many world dealers and collectors view an UNC note in the strict sense of UNC but where the grading companies have brought in a new, grayer, definition of UNC allowing for corner bends and stuff like that." Is there now some undefined definition of UNC? Yes. But this hasn't always been the case (I'd argue this has only entered world currency in the past 5 years en force).
Let me give you a little history, since this topic may not be known to you for world currency. Back before TPGs came up with this 70 pt system, with 11 different grades of UNC or "new" notes (60 to 70), there was one definition, as promoted by the IBNS. Here it is for your reading pleasure (See IBNS grading standards):
"A perfectly preserved note, never mishandled by the issuing authority, a bank teller, the public or a collector. Paper is clean and firm, without discoloration. Corners are sharp and square, without any evidence of rounding. (Rounded corners are often telltale sign of a cleaned or “doctored” note.) An uncirculated note will have its original natural sheen."
It is cut and dry. PERFECT PRESERVED, NEVER MISHANDLED. No bends, tears, folds, etc. In fact, it still is the IBNS definition of UNC. Does it need to be super gem? First, what does that mean? I expect it not to have creases or bends, so if that is super gem, then yes. What should the IBNS do? I've already made a recommendation on this board [to them] (along with many others over on the IBNS board; this was a hot item last fall) back in January when the general topic of TPG inconsistency was discussed ad nauseum here:
[With regard to how the IBNS feels they don't have any sway to help align the grading of the TPGs...] "I get it - really, I do understand the position they think they are in. However doing nothing makes the IBNS completely useless. Otherwise it's just a good ol' boys club that publishes a magazine once per quarter. Legally they really don't have any sway. But they could work to facilitate the 'big players in the industry' to come together, as you suggested. They all go to Memphis and Valkenburg (both IBNS and the grading companies). Get them together and facilitate an agreement. At the very least, speak for the membership and communicate the frustration around a topic that many collectors feel is ruining the hobby." [edited for clarity]
Alex gave a pretty good example of a failure to align prices with market value. Maybe I came off to you a bit over the top - that wasn't my intent, I understand that dealers have to deal with purchase price to make sure they don't lose money. But, frankly, I don't care about your overhead, the cost to grade a note, your transportation, your hotels. That's your business. Nor would I think you'd care about my budget, my transportation, my hotels, admission prices, or my grading standard (we collectors also have those costs). But there is a level of "reasonable" that I believe is implied by the nature of our, and any, collector area (by the way, other dealers notice this too at these shows, it's not just me). You can ask whatever you like for a note - you're not forcing me to buy it. But I do get exasperated with dealers asking multiples of the value of a note, creating a false high market, in the same way that I get exasperated with our dear friends at Krause Books publishing banknote values that are totally out of line with reality (ask any dealer or collector in world notes and you will get an earful about this) in our, like it or not (for now...thanks, Owen!), standard reference book. If you want to criticize me for that frustration, go ahead, but may I suggest that if this is the case, we just agree to disagree.
If you want to have a further conversation about this, let's do it through PM. By your number of posts, you appear to be new to the board - in any case, welcome to the fun!
And Jim - yes, I do need to invest in a flashlight! And fast!
Thats why there are TPG's to help you about the exact state of a note, and on top of that, they consider embossing , colour, centering, margins, and even that is an opinion.
If you buy a raw note , you are your own TPG , never mind what the dealer or seller tells you.
If you are unsure about grading yourself or believe everything what sellers tell you, I suggest buy graded & slabbed notes preferable graded by our host.
Nice notes Robert , your building an interesting World note collection. Are you living in the Netherlands ?
I used to live in the Netherlands almost 20 years ago as when I was still in primary school. That's what sparked my interest in Dutch notes, when I would go in my early years to buy notes down at a little philatelic/numismatic market that used to operate every Saturday in the square of the main church in Rotterdam near the market. I've gone back more recently and have been told by the nearby coin shop that those older fellows either died or just stopped trading there - it's completely empty while the market near the Blaak station continues to bustle. It's really a pity; I have fond memories of their helpfulness and patience as I learned about this hobby, barely able to make my way with the Dutch language. Their English was so incredibly good, even the older generation. I remember being enamored that I could buy a French note from 1792 for 1 guilder and I would imagine it was being used in Paris during the Revolution to buy a loaf of bread. I remember all kinds of rare Dutch notes, they'd hang them from their stalls and they were definitely being sold for prices of yore - you could get a 200 gulden note for several hundred guilders (at that time it was about 2 dfl = $1), now you'll pay thousands of euros for those notes! I remember one particular dealer gave me an Iranian 500 rial note from the 1970s when I told him I was moving away. It was such a kind gesture that I'll never forget, and a note I'll treasure. I lived in a little town called Bergschenhoek, which is near Rotterdam. Now I live in Luxembourg, which is barely an hour tall and a half hour wide.
I think their language is closely related to dutch, not strange because it once belonged to the Netherlands.
How's your dutch nowadays ?
I once had a large collection of these French assignats, and I imagined how all these (hundreds) of French counterfeiters of assignats were beheaded on the place de la Guillotine in Paris
I just started a world banknote collection, theme: ""the most beautifull banknotes"". I added a Rembrandt 1000 Guilder 1956, a 250 guilder 1985 Vuurtoren and the 50 guilder 1982 sunflower note.
I now have 20 world notes alltogether , latest addition a 10 Rial 1951 persian note, aiming at 50 in total.
furthermore I concentrate on early Greek banknotes and ancient greek & roman coins.
kind regards from Leiden, Netherlands
Thank you very much!
Beautifull country Luxembourg,which I visited many times.
I think their language is closely related to dutch, not strange because it once belonged to the Netherlands.
Luxembourg is wonderful. I was there a few times too.
My other hobby, to collect old comic books, was the reason to visit this nice but small country.
It's also called "Letzeburg". The language is a German dialect called "Moselfränkisch".
Nevertheless it may sound like Dutch, but Dutch is on the other hand not far away from other German dialects like "Friesisch" or "Plattdeutsch".
I like the Dutch banknotes too, they are special.
Once I owned some notes of the 70ies and 80ies, they are always in my mind when I hear something about Dutch banknotes. Although I don't collect them I just look at them and then all memories are coming back to me.
An old love never dies...
Andres - the Rembrandt is my favorite note of all time ever. I bought one last year and couldn't be happier to own it.
Thanks, Andres!
I used to live in the Netherlands almost 20 years ago as when I was still in primary school. That's what sparked my interest in Dutch notes, when I would go in my early years to buy notes down at a little philatelic/numismatic market that used to operate every Saturday in the square of the main church in Rotterdam near the market. I've gone back more recently and have been told by the nearby coin shop that those older fellows either died or just stopped trading there - it's completely empty while the market near the Blaak station continues to bustle. It's really a pity; I have fond memories of their helpfulness and patience as I learned about this hobby, barely able to make my way with the Dutch language. Their English was so incredibly good, even the older generation. I remember being enamored that I could buy a French note from 1792 for 1 guilder and I would imagine it was being used in Paris during the Revolution to buy a loaf of bread. I remember all kinds of rare Dutch notes, they'd hang them from their stalls and they were definitely being sold for prices of yore - you could get a 200 gulden note for several hundred guilders (at that time it was about 2 dfl = $1), now you'll pay thousands of euros for those notes! I remember one particular dealer gave me an Iranian 500 rial note from the 1970s when I told him I was moving away. It was such a kind gesture that I'll never forget, and a note I'll treasure. I lived in a little town called Bergschenhoek, which is near Rotterdam. Now I live in Luxembourg, which is barely an hour tall and a half hour wide.
Luxembourg is great.
I was living in Liege and working in Luxembourg few years ago.
Very nice. But can get very cold in the winter.
1. Any The Zanzibar Government note in any condition.
Thanks for your reply. Would you mind informing a little bit about which values (or at least which countries) you feel the Krause World Paper Money Catalog values are unrealistic?
Early Middle East.
For example, Egypt P.18 (the scarce "camel" pound) is 400 for VF20. I will buy every single note for this price in this condition.
At 60 grade the price is 2000. If by any chance 60 grade note will appear at the market, the price tag will be easily 8000-10000.
1. Any The Zanzibar Government note in any condition.
Thanks for your reply. Would you mind informing a little bit about which values (or at least which countries) you feel the Krause World Paper Money Catalog values are unrealistic?
Afghanistan through Zimbabwe.
Seriously, there has been such little attention given to the Standard Catalog since F+W took over Krause that it is a wonder it is published at all. Either they are way overpriced (Germany and Russia as Robert pointed out) or way underpriced (British India, much of China, and early Middle East) for areas that are heavily collected. You would think that the areas of the world with the greatest interest would result in more accurate pricing. Not so.
This is just a general comment, I have learned, as have many, that any note of significant value cannot be priced effectively in a printed price "guide" book. Always search for multiple sources of information before making a larger purchase. Sometimes people new to the hobby do not want to take the time to research first. Everyone ends up learning, but some have to pay more for an education than others.
...a lot of the Mexico Banco notes are overpriced in the Krause catalog. Many notes listed at $1000 sell often for $200-$400!
Curiously I noticed when I was in Netherlands and Luxembourg that their flags are practically the same - I believe only the blue is very slightly different.
Good observation, ALMOST the same!
The blues are slightly different. The blue is a deep blue as originally seem on the arms of the House of Oranje, the royal family of The Kingdom of the Netherlands:
The traditional Luxembourg banner is in fact a red lion in front of alternating light blue and white stripes:
Note that the blue of the modern Luxembourg flag aligns with the blue in this older traditional Luxembourgish flag.
I'm just speculating now, but my guess is that when Luxembourg was under influence of the Dutch, they adopted the structure of the flag of the Batavian Republic. But that's just a guess.
It could be a reason that both countries use the same - or actually similar - flag because they were once ruled by ONE king, the king of the Netherlands. So it was a "personal union" and so it doesn't surprise that both countries, although formal two independent states, used the same flag that time..
But when King Willem III. (House of Nassau) died he left behind only a daughter, Wilhelmina.
She succeeded her father as Queen of the Netherlands Wilhelmina I.
That was possible in the Netherlands but not in Luxembourg.
The succession there allowed only a male heir. So another member of the Nassau-Family, Duke Adolph, became the new Grand Duke of Luxembourg.
The personal union ended because of differences in the rules of succession.
Another theory says that it was more a coincidence that both flags are so similar.
1830 Luxembourg decided to change the blue to demonstrate a difference to the flag of the Netherlands.
It doesn't matter whether the first story or the second theory is correct, it's a pleasure to talk about history.
Nowadays Luxemburg , Belgium and the Netherlands once one country under dutch King Willem the first , are joined in the BENELUX as well as in the EU.
I have also noticed that Krause did reprice France but made many of the notes too expensive and thus they sit around in dealer inventory. They were using Fayette but not differentiating the dates. And I don't see that market all that strong.
Another one that seems to cat high but is very weak is Italy.
These just came in from one of my helpers at the show. A few replacements:
Croatia
Cuba
Jim61
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16566561 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps and TheRock!
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16977961.
Looking for $1 CU FRN 99999961 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps!
Looking for $50 FRN 00000061
Looking for CU $1 FRN 20160523 - any series or block. Please PM
Retired
Jim61
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16566561 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps and TheRock!
Looking for $1 CU FRN radar 16977961.
Looking for $1 CU FRN 99999961 - NOT ANY MORE, THANK YOU delistamps!
Looking for $50 FRN 00000061
Obviously Valkenburg is a great show for World Currency and special serial numbers?