Easy. Not enough black kids are playing the sport. The kids that do often pick basketball or football instead of baseball if they are good enough
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Originally posted by: Justacommeman Easy. Not enough black kids are playing the sport. The kids that do often pick basketball or football instead of baseball if they are good enough
I thought it was interesting that the author dismissed this theory - without saying why - and then cited the low percentage of black kids on D-1 baseball teams and said that argument was more convincing. But then in the very next sentence he cites the "surge" in Latino players in MLB, but doesn't mention how Latinos are represented on D-1 baseball teams. I suspect that the figure doesn't support his theory.
He also cites the "rising expenses" of youth baseball programs for the dearth of black players. But he does so in a vacuum, without comparing that to the cost of youth basketball and football programs, and without explaining how it relates to the surge in Latino players. Again, I suspect that the facts wouldn't fit his theory.
I think it's an interesting development that the percentage of black players has dropped as far as it has, but this article doesn't really offer anything but one man's unsubstantiated opinion as to why that is. I'll wait for his follow-ups on what the NFL and NBA need to do to attract more white players; maybe it will all make more sense then.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
2 black players on a 25 man roster represent 8% so the Tigers are the norm.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I would think that over the next 10-15 years, as parents don't allow children to play youth football due to brain injury that mlb will have a big influx of talent. I am not quite sure why it matters what color skin that talent has, but I guess it really matters to some people.
Latin Amerucan kids in the most destitute of circumstances, using empty milk cartons for gloves find a way to play the game and to become very good at it if the drive and talent are there. I just don't buy the notion that blacks don't play baseball because it's too expensive a sport. Why don't more white men play football? It's not always about socioeconomic circumstances.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
According to a survey taken in 2014, the number of white players in the NFL was nearly 28%. Black players accounted for 68% and Asian/Pacific Islanders made up roughly 4%.
the number of white players in the NFL was nearly 28%
68 to 28 is quite a disparity. Does the survey include punters and kickers?
The point I am making is that baseball is no more "white," than basketball or football is "black." If kids enjoy the sport, and are good at it, they will play it, regardless of wealth or background. If anything, I think you will see a decline in football participation as more evidence about CTE and brain damage comes to light (though we have not witnessed a decline in skill level to this point, at least, and for many kids of poor backgrounds such an opportunity that sports provides is much greater than any other in many cases). I know it's trendy these days to conduct racial studies like these, but as Dallas stated, much of the synopsis seems to be founded on biased opinion rather than reality or fact. As many players from Latino backgrounds have sufficiently demonstrated, there is no real roadblock to playing baseball well due to socioeconomic circumstances, and I would contend that such an assertion is rather disingenuous for the most part.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As of 2015, the percentage of players who identified themselves as white was 58.8%, black players accounted for 8.3%, Latinos 29.3% and Asians 1.2%. Not sure what happened to the missing percentages, perhaps some players declined to participate, or they just didn't know.
Yeah, it's curious, isn't it, that he picked the major sport where the proportion of black players is the closest to the proportion of blacks in the population to single out as the problem? His purpose may well have been to further divide Americans; if not, I have no idea what he hoped to accomplish.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
What is it that makes one's color (black, brown, red, white, yellow) so important to some people/
Also what is it that makes "whiteness" so "unbearable" to some people?
If the desired goal for society is everyone is "equal" in all respects [except for those who few who are in charge of things and thus more equal than those that they are in charge of] because that is "fair", then:
a. there should be no keeping score in sports events,
b. there should only be participation trophies,
c. there should be sports teams that are co-ed (can not have male only teams or female only teams),
d. there should be no minimum skill level required (every team must have players on it who represent a true cross section of the general population, for example an NFL team must have a 75 year old 80 lb. chinese woman on it; a 20 year old quadriplegic on it; a 45 year old 600 lb video gamer on it; an NBA team must have 5'2" slow, gravity chained players on it; and Olympic teams must have men and women on them who have never participated in any form of athletics on them);
e. there should be punishment and discouragement of persons who perform at levels that are above the level that the least capable teammate can comfortably perform at.; and
f. there should be a banning of competition and aggression.
I am sure that sporting events played under the above parameters would be a sellout and would generate millions of dollars in revenue (NOT).
Originally posted by: pocketpiececommems I have never in my life heard Roberto Clemente refered to as Bob as stated in the article. Not when he was playing and not after he died.
His Topps cards all identified him as "Bob" until 1971.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Like Tim said you have poor Hispanic kids using milk cartons and sticks so poor inner city Black kids could play if they wanted in my opinion. I'm so done with MLB anyways, I hope the league goes bankrupt from these stupid contracts given out and the mind boggling amount of money it costs to take a family to a game.
I wouldn't call the article interesting...and yes, I read it.
Clearly written by a bigot who is seeking to throw yet another perennial wedge into the "black - white" issues that plague our country. I trust he will be searching vigorously for Native American and Native Alaskan baseball talent to balance this horrific discovery of "whiteness".
So glad he was "freed" from having to root for the Red Sox and is out of Boston, one of the greatest cities on this planet and one of the most historic baseball teams in existence. I doubt the writer has a clue who Pumpsie Green is.
Placing percentile statistics on the composition of MLB players is a bias intended to show racism, no more, no less. Only talent and skill get you to the MLB level. Unfortunately, many grow up in an environment that precludes their skills from shining through...perhaps many just don't give a rip. Many MLB players, white, black, latino, or whatever, grew up in abject poverty, but perseverance and desire overcame their surroundings.
Pumpsie Green? You mean the first black player ever on the Red Sox, the last team to integrate, 12 years after Jackie Robinson? That Pumpsie Green? Lol, you make your case with Pumpsie Green????
I don't have to make any case, merely added the fact that Pumpsie was indeed the first black Red Sox player. Surely Google saved you on that one.
My POINT is that the author is a bigot and a racist. Maybe you should reread my last two sentences and not cherry pick my post in order to bolster your support for this socially challenged idiot.
No, Pumpsie Green grew up in Richmond, not far from where I live, and I know players he coached at Berkeley High School. If you're making a case for why you think Boston is such a great place, and more specifically the Red Sox, then why did it take them so long to sign a black player? They weren't exactly the Yankees, who could use winning pennants as an excuse for keeping their roster white for so long, the Red Sox sucked in those years and could have used all the help they could get.
Originally posted by: PSASAPIf you're making a case for why you think Boston is such a great place, and more specifically the Red Sox, then why did it take them so long to sign a black player?
But what the Red Sox did or did not do half a century ago is surely irrelevant to both the article's point and MCMLV's point. But then, as far as I can tell the article has no actual point to make so there really isn't anything that any of us could say that would be relevant to it. You can notice when someone is stirring the pot of racial divisiveness, but as with any racist commentary, there isn't anything to do after that but just walk away.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
There is no obligation for anyone to do anything about anything after reading the article. But since you are so fond of analyzing data Dallas, what do you make of the precipitous decline in the percentage of African Americans who are playing MLB? Do you see the decline as a natural occurence, in much the same way some people view climate change? Or do you see it as the consequence of actions that were taken, or not taken, in the past 30+ years?
Originally posted by: PSASAP There is no obligation for anyone to do anything about anything after reading the article. But since you are so fond of analyzing data Dallas, what do you make of the precipitous decline in the percentage of African Americans who are playing MLB? Do you see the decline as a natural occurence, in much the same way some people view climate change? Or do you see it as the consequence of actions that were taken, or not taken, in the past 30+ years?
As I said, I find the decline interesting and would be interested in reading an analysis of why it happened. As far as I know, no such analysis has ever been attempted. My guess is that black kids just aren't as interested in baseball anymore, but I don't know why that would be since no major sport has changed in any significant way for generations. Basketball has always been the easiest and cheapest sport to play as a child, and football the hardest and most expensive. Since baseball is in between these two, and blacks are significantly overrepresented in these two, I am certain that ease and cost have nothing to do with it. If there is some inherent conflict between black culture and baseball culture I don't know what that might be, but baseball culture has been constant for decades so any conflict that now exists must exist because black culture has moved in some way. As an old white guy I'm not qualified to guess on what that movement may have been, but I see no reason to think that baseball is under any kind of obligation to change its culture. I consider black's slight underrepresentation in baseball to be no more a "problem" than their enormous overrepresentation in basketball and football.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
It's interesting that you perceive African Americans to be overrepresented in both the NFL and the NBA. Given that virtually every owner in both sports is white, and presumably they can choose to hire, or not hire, any player on their team, would you say that it is due to the owner's largesse that so many black players take up roster spots? Or is it that, in order to field a competitive team, the players who are in the league are the best players, regardless of race?
Originally posted by: PSASAP It's interesting that you perceive African Americans to be overrepresented in both the NFL and the NBA. Given that virtually every owner in both sports is white, and presumably they can choose to hire, or not hire, any player on their team, would you say that it is due to the owner's largesse that so many black players take up roster spots? Or is it that, in order to field a competitive team, the players who are in the league are the best players, regardless of race?
What does my perception have to do with anything? Blacks are about 13% of the population, so if they comprise more than 13% of the people engaged in an activity they are "overrepresented" in that activity. If you're reading something more into that, then that's on you.
I assume, because I have no reason to believe otherwise, that every athlete in every sport was perceived by the team's owner/GM to be the best available for the price. Exactly the same situation holds, of course, in baseball as in football and basketball (and hockey).
Again, it's a damn strange question to ask me since I've never said anything to indicate that I believe anything other than that. My conclusion is that you are a troll; that you don't actually have any interest in my responses to these inane questions, but you enjoy being a racist on a chat board just to stir things up. I'm doing you the honor of assuming that you are just pretending to be a racist, but if you want to convince me that you're not just pretending you don't have much further to go.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Originally posted by: PSASAP Your premise is flawed. Professional sports do not mirror the population as a whole. What you're talking about are quotas.
I have neither assumed nor implied a premise so I have no way of knowing what you're talking about. Likewise I have never mentioned nor even considered a "quota" until you brought it up. Please state clearly what you perceive my premise to be. You appear to be saying that because blacks make up such a high percentage of the NFL and NBA that therefore they should make up a high percentage of every other sport. But that's such a ridiculously stupid thing to say that I must have that wrong. But other than that, I can't come up with an even theoretical reason for your statement that "professional sports do not mirror the population."
I think you're trying to be pithy but you're making so many assumptions that are false that pretty much everything you've written in this thread is simply incomprehensible. All that's coming through is racist trolling; if that's your intent, then keep doing what you're doing, but if it's not you might want to spend a few extra seconds explaining what the hell you're talking about.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Your premise is that for African Americans to be neither overrepresented nor underrepresented in the NBA and the NFL, their combined population in both leagues would be at around 13% of the total number of players. That is a false premise because the number of professional athletes do not mirror the total population of the U.S. They are as unrelated as watermelons and Chevrolets.
And let's talk about the definition of a troll, shall we. A troll is someone who really adds nothing to the message board that actually helps other members of the particular hobby. This is first, and foremost, a message board devoted to the hobby of sports cards and memorabilia collecting. Members enhance the collecting experience for others by sharing helpful information to those looking to start a collection, or improve upon an existing collection. Some members go a step further by participating in group rips or organizing group submissions. A troll doesn't do any of those things. A troll tries to convince others that he knows what he is talking about; in fact, he needs to convince people that he knows more than they do. When other members object, or offer a dissenting opinion, the troll becomes petulant and resorts to making disparaging comments about those who disagree with him. Now do you understand what a troll is?
I don't think there's any question that the author of this article is being disingenuous. The reason there are fewer blacks playing MLB, or the reason that a higher percentage of blacks are playing professional football or basketball has nothing to do with the assertions put forth in the article. A truthful examination of the percentages would be an interesting study, but such a serious study would lack the easy sensationalism this article is inviting with its hyperbolic title.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Originally posted by: PSASAP Your premise is that for African Americans to be neither overrepresented nor underrepresented in the NBA and the NFL, their combined population in both leagues would be at around 13% of the total number of players. That is a false premise because the number of professional athletes do not mirror the total population of the U.S. They are as unrelated as watermelons and Chevrolets.
No, that wasn't my premise, it was just a definition. I even defined what I meant by "overrepresented" so I don't think you could have missed it. "Overrepresented" is just a statistical term - it has no moral component and does not address in any way why a group is overrepresented or if that's a good or a bad thing. Get it now?
Blacks are overrepresented in the NBA and NFL and underrepresented in every other professional sport that I can think of (baseball, hockey, tennis, golf, bowling, auto racing, horse racing, soccer). I am just stating a fact, I am not making an argument or offering it as evidence of anything else.
I still have no idea what you mean by "the number of professional athletes do {sic} not mirror the total population of the U.S." as it relates to over or under representation. Are you implying that there is a "correct" percentage of black athletes that is different than 13% from which to measure over and under representation? If so, what is that percentage and how did you determine it? If not, I'll ask you again to explain what you mean.
And you need to look up "troll" - it does not mean what you think it means. Even so, I've done all of the things that you say trolls don't do, so even if your definition was correct it still wouldn't apply to me. I can be a jerk to people who won't answer simple questions or who say stupid things, but the word you're looking for in that case is "jerk", not "troll".
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
You can add grammar nanny to the list. Your a peace of work.
* you're
* piece
Just helping move this along. For real.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Originally posted by: PSASAP You can add grammar nanny to the list. Your a peace of work.
If you're not going to answer a single question that I ask I have to find another way to get something of value out of your posts. Finding grammatical errors and logical fallacies is all that you've left me. I am beginning to suspect that it is all you have to offer. On the bright side, you get points for consistency. (See what I did there?)
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
PSASAP
Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
Comments
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Easy. Not enough black kids are playing the sport. The kids that do often pick basketball or football instead of baseball if they are good enough
I thought it was interesting that the author dismissed this theory - without saying why - and then cited the low percentage of black kids on D-1 baseball teams and said that argument was more convincing. But then in the very next sentence he cites the "surge" in Latino players in MLB, but doesn't mention how Latinos are represented on D-1 baseball teams. I suspect that the figure doesn't support his theory.
He also cites the "rising expenses" of youth baseball programs for the dearth of black players. But he does so in a vacuum, without comparing that to the cost of youth basketball and football programs, and without explaining how it relates to the surge in Latino players. Again, I suspect that the facts wouldn't fit his theory.
I think it's an interesting development that the percentage of black players has dropped as far as it has, but this article doesn't really offer anything but one man's unsubstantiated opinion as to why that is. I'll wait for his follow-ups on what the NFL and NBA need to do to attract more white players; maybe it will all make more sense then.
2 African Americans
14 white dudes ( 9 are pitchers)
9 of Hispanic decent
2 black players on a 25 man roster represent 8% so the Tigers are the norm.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
link
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
68 to 28 is quite a disparity. Does the survey include punters and kickers?
The point I am making is that baseball is no more "white," than basketball or football is "black." If kids enjoy the sport, and are good at it, they will play it, regardless of wealth or background. If anything, I think you will see a decline in football participation as more evidence about CTE and brain damage comes to light (though we have not witnessed a decline in skill level to this point, at least, and for many kids of poor backgrounds such an opportunity that sports provides is much greater than any other in many cases). I know it's trendy these days to conduct racial studies like these, but as Dallas stated, much of the synopsis seems to be founded on biased opinion rather than reality or fact. As many players from Latino backgrounds have sufficiently demonstrated, there is no real roadblock to playing baseball well due to socioeconomic circumstances, and I would contend that such an assertion is rather disingenuous for the most part.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Baseball probably bores all kids equally regardless of color compared to other sports. They really need to address the pace of the game or its doomed.
I realize they have addressed the pace of the game recently but I mean speed it up not slow it down more.
"The Unbearable Blackness of Basketball" and "The Unbearable Blackness of Football"
People who write articles such as the one linked in the OP are merely trying to further divide Americans
Text
Also what is it that makes "whiteness" so "unbearable" to some people?
If the desired goal for society is everyone is "equal" in all respects [except for those who few who are in charge of things and thus more equal than those that they are in charge of] because that is "fair", then:
a. there should be no keeping score in sports events,
b. there should only be participation trophies,
c. there should be sports teams that are co-ed (can not have male only teams or female only teams),
d. there should be no minimum skill level required (every team must have players on it who represent a true cross section of the general population, for example an NFL team must have a 75 year old 80 lb. chinese woman on it; a 20 year old quadriplegic on it; a 45 year old 600 lb video gamer on it; an NBA team must have 5'2" slow, gravity chained players on it; and Olympic teams must have men and women on them who have never participated in any form of athletics on them);
e. there should be punishment and discouragement of persons who perform at levels that are above the level that the least capable teammate can comfortably perform at.; and
f. there should be a banning of competition and aggression.
I am sure that sporting events played under the above parameters would be a sellout and would generate millions of dollars in revenue (NOT).
Lafayette Grading Set
I have never in my life heard Roberto Clemente refered to as Bob as stated in the article. Not when he was playing and not after he died.
His Topps cards all identified him as "Bob" until 1971.
Lafayette Grading Set
Clearly written by a bigot who is seeking to throw yet another perennial wedge into the "black - white" issues that plague our country. I trust he will be searching vigorously for Native American and Native Alaskan baseball talent to balance this horrific discovery of "whiteness".
So glad he was "freed" from having to root for the Red Sox and is out of Boston, one of the greatest cities on this planet and one of the most historic baseball teams in existence. I doubt the writer has a clue who Pumpsie Green is.
Placing percentile statistics on the composition of MLB players is a bias intended to show racism, no more, no less. Only talent and skill get you to the MLB level. Unfortunately, many grow up in an environment that precludes their skills from shining through...perhaps many just don't give a rip. Many MLB players, white, black, latino, or whatever, grew up in abject poverty, but perseverance and desire overcame their surroundings.
Total BS.
My POINT is that the author is a bigot and a racist. Maybe you should reread my last two sentences and not cherry pick my post in order to bolster your support for this socially challenged idiot.
There is no obligation for anyone to do anything about anything after reading the article. But since you are so fond of analyzing data Dallas, what do you make of the precipitous decline in the percentage of African Americans who are playing MLB? Do you see the decline as a natural occurence, in much the same way some people view climate change? Or do you see it as the consequence of actions that were taken, or not taken, in the past 30+ years?
As I said, I find the decline interesting and would be interested in reading an analysis of why it happened. As far as I know, no such analysis has ever been attempted. My guess is that black kids just aren't as interested in baseball anymore, but I don't know why that would be since no major sport has changed in any significant way for generations. Basketball has always been the easiest and cheapest sport to play as a child, and football the hardest and most expensive. Since baseball is in between these two, and blacks are significantly overrepresented in these two, I am certain that ease and cost have nothing to do with it. If there is some inherent conflict between black culture and baseball culture I don't know what that might be, but baseball culture has been constant for decades so any conflict that now exists must exist because black culture has moved in some way. As an old white guy I'm not qualified to guess on what that movement may have been, but I see no reason to think that baseball is under any kind of obligation to change its culture. I consider black's slight underrepresentation in baseball to be no more a "problem" than their enormous overrepresentation in basketball and football.
It's interesting that you perceive African Americans to be overrepresented in both the NFL and the NBA. Given that virtually every owner in both sports is white, and presumably they can choose to hire, or not hire, any player on their team, would you say that it is due to the owner's largesse that so many black players take up roster spots? Or is it that, in order to field a competitive team, the players who are in the league are the best players, regardless of race?
What does my perception have to do with anything? Blacks are about 13% of the population, so if they comprise more than 13% of the people engaged in an activity they are "overrepresented" in that activity. If you're reading something more into that, then that's on you.
I assume, because I have no reason to believe otherwise, that every athlete in every sport was perceived by the team's owner/GM to be the best available for the price. Exactly the same situation holds, of course, in baseball as in football and basketball (and hockey).
Again, it's a damn strange question to ask me since I've never said anything to indicate that I believe anything other than that. My conclusion is that you are a troll; that you don't actually have any interest in my responses to these inane questions, but you enjoy being a racist on a chat board just to stir things up. I'm doing you the honor of assuming that you are just pretending to be a racist, but if you want to convince me that you're not just pretending you don't have much further to go.
Your premise is flawed. Professional sports do not mirror the population as a whole. What you're talking about are quotas.
I have neither assumed nor implied a premise so I have no way of knowing what you're talking about. Likewise I have never mentioned nor even considered a "quota" until you brought it up. Please state clearly what you perceive my premise to be. You appear to be saying that because blacks make up such a high percentage of the NFL and NBA that therefore they should make up a high percentage of every other sport. But that's such a ridiculously stupid thing to say that I must have that wrong. But other than that, I can't come up with an even theoretical reason for your statement that "professional sports do not mirror the population."
I think you're trying to be pithy but you're making so many assumptions that are false that pretty much everything you've written in this thread is simply incomprehensible. All that's coming through is racist trolling; if that's your intent, then keep doing what you're doing, but if it's not you might want to spend a few extra seconds explaining what the hell you're talking about.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Your premise is that for African Americans to be neither overrepresented nor underrepresented in the NBA and the NFL, their combined population in both leagues would be at around 13% of the total number of players. That is a false premise because the number of professional athletes do not mirror the total population of the U.S. They are as unrelated as watermelons and Chevrolets.
No, that wasn't my premise, it was just a definition. I even defined what I meant by "overrepresented" so I don't think you could have missed it. "Overrepresented" is just a statistical term - it has no moral component and does not address in any way why a group is overrepresented or if that's a good or a bad thing. Get it now?
Blacks are overrepresented in the NBA and NFL and underrepresented in every other professional sport that I can think of (baseball, hockey, tennis, golf, bowling, auto racing, horse racing, soccer). I am just stating a fact, I am not making an argument or offering it as evidence of anything else.
I still have no idea what you mean by "the number of professional athletes do {sic} not mirror the total population of the U.S." as it relates to over or under representation. Are you implying that there is a "correct" percentage of black athletes that is different than 13% from which to measure over and under representation? If so, what is that percentage and how did you determine it? If not, I'll ask you again to explain what you mean.
And you need to look up "troll" - it does not mean what you think it means. Even so, I've done all of the things that you say trolls don't do, so even if your definition was correct it still wouldn't apply to me. I can be a jerk to people who won't answer simple questions or who say stupid things, but the word you're looking for in that case is "jerk", not "troll".
You can add grammar nanny to the list. Your a peace of work.
* you're
* piece
Just helping move this along. For real.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You can add grammar nanny to the list. Your a peace of work.
If you're not going to answer a single question that I ask I have to find another way to get something of value out of your posts. Finding grammatical errors and logical fallacies is all that you've left me. I am beginning to suspect that it is all you have to offer. On the bright side, you get points for consistency. (See what I did there?)