Italian States newp (sort of)

EVillageProwler

This Papal States testone has been in my possession since the NYINC 2016 show, unpaid and not invoiced. Due to various logistical issues, the dealer didn't want to take his coin home so he asked me to hold onto it until NYINC 2017, with the proviso that I can buy it and pay him at the NYINC 2017 show comes around.

I had been holding off on deciding what to do until today, when I decided to write the tag for it and realized that it's highly unlikely that I'll want to return it. I suppose that's the main reason he decided to ask me to hold onto it.

Anyway, I hope that explains the "sort of" in the thread title. The image is from the Nomisma S.P.A. auction. The coin is not cheap, and budget is already over-stretched (I've another reason to beware of the Ides of March!), so I expect to suffer through a long drought again.

STLNATS

Lovely holy year piece. Well worth "holding" onto!



Congrats and thanks for sharing.

Iosephus

Nice Holy Year issue! The arms on the obverse (right image) are those of the Pope himself, though, not his adopted Cardinal-Nephew.

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: STLNATS
Lovely holy year piece. Well worth "holding" onto!

Congrats and thanks for sharing.

Thanks. I figured you'd enjoy this one.

I've wanted a Holy Door one for a while. It's a great type coin. Didn't expect to get one in such a high grade. Not complaining though...

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: Iosephus
Nice Holy Year issue! The arms on the obverse (right image) are those of the Pope himself, though, not his adopted Cardinal-Nephew.

Really? How can you tell? What is the KM # then? The dealer tag says KM #2, but I couldn't find that anywhere in Krause. Did I get the Muntoni # correct? I got that from the Nomisma auction description.

EVillageProwler

BTW, those arms of maybe the Pope or maybe the Cardinal -- are they different, since aren't they of the same Altieri family?

Iosephus

Originally posted by: EVillageProwler
Really? How can you tell? What is the KM # then? The dealer tag says KM #2, but I couldn't find that anywhere in Krause. Did I get the Muntoni # correct? I got that from the Nomisma auction description.

I don't have the Krause catalogs, and my set of Muntoni is packed away, but this coin is Berman #2012, and he references Muntoni 22 for it.

Originally posted by: EVillageProwler
BTW, those arms of maybe the Pope or maybe the Cardinal -- are they different, since aren't they of the same Altieri family?

Being adopted into the Altieri family, I'd assume Paluzzi adopted the same design for the shield. However, only the Pope's arms would be surmounted by the papal tiara and crossed keys. Also, papal coins (as one would assume) feature the papal coat of arms for obverse designs when the papal portrait is not used.

EVillageProwler

So, Joe, you're saying two things: arms are of the Pope, and I mixed up the obverse and reverse? Btw, the way I have it is the same way PCGS has it, but we all know how much that matters.

Anyway, I'll fix the tag and image later but can't fix the holder unless I spend money.

JCMhouston

EVP you are a really nice guy to hold that for him until next year!

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: JCMhouston
EVP you are a really nice guy to hold that for him until next year!

I'm a prince among men. Speaking of next year, hope to see you at NYINC. My wife will be with me this time, and I won't be rushing back to NJ.

(Is it too early to discuss NYINC?!?)

brg5658

Cool piece.



Are these cast or just struck from very rusty dies? I'm not accustomed to seeing so many little "bubble" liike flecks (e.g., around the word OSTIUM).

EVillageProwler

Image and tag fixed.

Originally posted by: brg5658
Cool piece.

Are these cast or just struck from very rusty dies? I'm not accustomed to seeing so many little "bubble" liike flecks (e.g., around the word OSTIUM).

I see what are either flow lines or die polish. It is possible the "bubbles" are from rust. Not sure, but I've seen this on another Papal States 1/2 Piastra from Clement XII (1734). It wouldn't surprise me if there was another explanation that I can't yet fathom, but for now I think rust or cast are the only explanations I can see as well.

Iosephus

Originally posted by: EVillageProwler
So, Joe, you're saying two things: arms are of the Pope, and I mixed up the obverse and reverse? Btw, the way I have it is the same way PCGS has it, but we all know how much that matters.

Anyway, I'll fix the tag and image later but can't fix the holder unless I spend money.

Yup! Not worth the money to reholder IMO.

JCMhouston

(Is it too early to discuss NYINC?!?)

It's never too early! I've already been thinking about my schedule for next year.

worldcoinguy

Very nice addition. I would not have been able to hold until NYINC 2017 either.

STLNATS

I'm a little confused by the flow of this thread; it looks like some corrections were made since I saw it before. I may be covering ground already covered by Joe, but c'est l'vie since I'm a bit late getting back to the discussion and am trying to process some of the comments.



The obverse is the side with the large papal arms supported by crossed keys and the papal tiara above, a pretty standard format representing the pope in lieu of his portrait. The tiny arms on the reverse (scene of the door) are those of the president of the mint, Giovanni Battista. The hat with tassels indicates this is not the pope, but a subordinate, in this case a monsignor given the number/rows of tassels (all per Muntoni).



The testone is Muntoni 22. FWIW the KM number is 364 and Berman 2012 as indicated by Joe. Muntoni 23 used the same reverse combined with an obverse featuring a right facing image of the pope very similar to that used on piastras.



The reverse inscription is translated by Coffin as "I have opened a way before thee," a reference to Isaiah 40:3 (Prepare ye the way of the Lord). Most appropriate for commemorating the opening of the holy door - at St Peter's I assume - which started the holy year.



These were struck but I don't think the die was used for an extended period. While die rust is quite common for medals and especially their restrikes which could have occurred many years after the fact, I think its less common for coins such as these. At least I haven't encountered them. I really can't tell from the scan but I wonder if a portion of the die was slightly damaged or worn, or perhaps a few of the letters slightly filled on the die.



I gather the coin was slabbed with the reverse facing up. While I don't know the convention used by the TPGs, I often will have the reverse facing up if it is of more interest. Also I wonder if in the US collectors more commonly think of arms being on the reverse of coins. At any rate, the arms are pretty and all, but the "action" and, for me, the interest is all on the reverse scene so the orientation seems perfectly natural.



Again, all and all a very interesting and lovely example of the type.

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: STLNATS
I'm a little confused by the flow of this thread; it looks like some corrections were made since I saw it before. I may be covering ground already covered by Joe, but c'est l'vie since I'm a bit late getting back to the discussion and am trying to process some of the comments.

The obverse is the side with the large papal arms supported by crossed keys and the papal tiara above, a pretty standard format representing the pope in lieu of his portrait. The tiny arms on the reverse (scene of the door) are those of the president of the mint, Giovanni Battista. The hat with tassels indicates this is not the pope, but a subordinate, in this case a monsignor given the number/rows of tassels (all per Muntoni).

The testone is Muntoni 22. FWIW the KM number is 364 and Berman 2012 as indicated by Joe. Muntoni 23 used the same reverse combined with an obverse featuring a right facing image of the pope very similar to that used on piastras.

The reverse inscription is translated by Coffin as "I have opened a way before thee," a reference to Isaiah 40:3 (Prepare ye the way of the Lord). Most appropriate for commemorating the opening of the holy door - at St Peter's I assume - which started the holy year.

These were struck but I don't think the die was used for an extended period. While die rust is quite common for medals and especially their restrikes which could have occurred many years after the fact, I think its less common for coins such as these. At least I haven't encountered them. I really can't tell from the scan but I wonder if a portion of the die was slightly damaged or worn, or perhaps a few of the letters slightly filled on the die.

I gather the coin was slabbed with the reverse facing up. While I don't know the convention used by the TPGs, I often will have the reverse facing up if it is of more interest. Also I wonder if in the US collectors more commonly think of arms being on the reverse of coins. At any rate, the arms are pretty and all, but the "action" and, for me, the interest is all on the reverse scene so the orientation seems perfectly natural.

Again, all and all a very interesting and lovely example of the type.

Thanks for the info.

Yes, the OP has been updated based on the progress of this topic thread. You're not losing your mind.

I'll update the tag with the KM (I guess I got it correct initially) and Berman #'s.

Trivla question: which popular musical had as its opening song "Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord"?

EVP

STLNATS

Trivla question: which popular musical had as its opening song "Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord"?



Godspell, largely based on the Gospel of Matthew. Will probably pull it out to watch again next week...

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: STLNATS
Trivla question: which popular musical had as its opening song "Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord"?

Godspell, largely based on the Gospel of Matthew. Will probably pull it out to watch again next week...

Give that man a gold star!

I've sat through that musical (live) many times, in many venues. Loved them all, and I'd watch it again. I always loved the opening scene, because it's never exactly the same (because the auditorium is always different due to the different venue).

EVillageProwler

STLNATS: was the mint master Giovanni Battista Patrizi?

STLNATS

Originally posted by: EVillageProwler

STLNATS: was the mint master Giovanni Battista Patrizi?

The mintmaster's mark is muntoni 165 or 92 in Berman. Costaguti is listed under the column labeled "casato, citta o comunita, under "Personaggio" is mons. Giovanni Battista whose title is given as "presidente delle zecche."



There is also listed a Giovanni Battista under the casato of Patrizi (mark 176= berm. 98) under Alexander VIII and an Altieri (mark 164= berm. 108) under Clement XI. Arms 164 and 165 seem to be related, 176 less so.



Frankly I've not really used these tables beyond verifying the arms and getting the reference number so can't really provide much further in terms of the significance of these listings altho I'd love to hear from someone who can.

marcmoish

nice piece indeed - will you leave it raw?

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: marcmoish
nice piece indeed - will you leave it raw?

It's already slabbed by our hosts (bought it that way) and I have no plans to liberate it.