I have to side with Darrin here. I believe that Clemente was a better hitter than Stargell. Clemente played almost his entire career at Forbes Field. Known as the toughest stadium to hit home runs. From 1963(Stargell's first year) to 1970, Stargell hit 196 home runs. In that same timeframe Clemente hit 142 home runs. That's not a huge difference. During that same timeframe, the RBI total was almost identical (Clemente - 665 to Stargell - 651). When the Pirates moved to Three Rivers Stadium in 1971, Stargell's home run total jumped from 31 to 48. His RBI total jumped from 85 to 125.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
OPS+ is one of the better metrics utilized to evaluate how good a hitter performs and is also adjusted to reflect ballpark factor and league averages.
Here is Clemente vs Stargell, top 10 seasons:
Clemente
171
168
160
152
150
146
146
143
138
136
Stargell
186
185
168
164
163
163
158
148
145
139
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Originally posted by: MCMLVTopps What, no Ted Williams?
Teddy Ballgame, 19 years with the Boston Red Sox, the Kid accomplished this:
17 All Star appearances 2 time American League MVP 6 time American League batting champ 2 time Triple Crown winner finished with a .344 batting average; 521 HRs; .482 OBP highest all-time
He joined the Navy/Marines in 1943 and served 3 years - in his prime during WWII He was a Marine combat pilot from 1952 - 1953, serving during the Korean war.
Elected to the HOF in 1966 in his first year of eligibility.
He became (in reality created) the Jimmy Fund in Boston, which has raised untold millions for cancer care & research, primarily for children.
As I kid in the mid-50s, I saw he and Mickey Mantle play in Fenway Park. I'd press my little transistor radio to my ear during the summer to hear Curt Gowdy call his at bats and fielding plays. "Hey neighbor, have a Gansett", a local Boston beer was the radio ad...how sweet those days were!
I knew he and Mantle were special then, but now the memories are even more precious. What could Ted have accomplished had he not served when he answered the call?
Ted was awesome! Had he not missed those years fighting for our country, his numbers would have been staggering!!!!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I've had three favorite players ever since I was a kid... Clemente, Stargell, and Brett so I really don't care if I lose this discussion anyway.lol. But I still say Clemente was a better hitter than Stargell based on a lifetime batting avg. 35 points higher. Yes, Stargell was better at drawing walks, but as far as talent at actually swinging the bat, batting average IS what matters.
Mike Donlin's batting average was 35 points higher than Mickey Mantle's. If Mike Donlin had still been alive and was offered the opportunity to carry Mickey Mantle's jockstrap, he would have jumped at it. A higher batting average doesn't really mean anything. Clemente had a batting average 35 points higher than Stargell, and yet Stargell still got on base more often than Clemente. And, in the average time he got on base he got further around the bases. On base more often + advancing further = better. You are focusing on Clemente's singles and, I think, assuming that they are far more valuable than Stargell's walks. They are a little more valuable, but not that much. And the small advantage to Clemente for getting on first base by singles vs. by walks is obliterated by Stargell's enormous home run advantage.
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I finally went through the list instead of just reacting to what others posted, and overall I think they did a much better job than any other published list like this I've seen recently.
And it is clear from their comments that when they are selecting the best player from a given team that they are considering only what a player did for that team, and not for any other teams he may have played for. So I'm fine with Ripken over F. Robinson for the Orioles, and Rose over Morgan for the Reds and a couple of others.
The one pick that I seriously object to is Chuck Finley on the Angels. Finley was a fine pitcher, but the best Angel in history is Jim Fregosi. Fregosi had the misfortune of playing in the deadball era on a really bad team in a really tough hitters park, so about all he's remembered for is being traded for Nolan Ryan late in his career. But Jim Fregosi was a great player. He didn't appear on many league leaders because of his home park, but he was in the top 10 in offensive WAR eight straight years and is in the top 200 all-time for offensive WAR and for total WAR for position players. That's not quite HOF level, but it is higher than Jim Rice who some people seem to think was a HOF level player. Maybe he was, but he was not as good as Jim Fregosi.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
Many players put up better numbers in their first 7 or 8 seasons, so I think its a valid argument. Is it a coincidence that Stargell's 4 best years were all at three rivers?
According to the book, 'the great one', Roberto made a decision to forego the long ball for a line-drive hitting approach, especially to the opposite field. The reason? Forbes Field ranked as the hardest park for home run hitters. Coach Danny Murtaugh stated that Clemente could hit 25-40 home runs a year if he wanted to. Willie Stargell stated in a 1992 interview that Pirates players including Clemente lost about 20 home runs a year playing at Forbes Field.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
So Clemente could have hit home runs but chose to hit singles instead? And that somehow proves he was a better hitter than Stargell? LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
Many players put up better numbers in their first 7 or 8 seasons, so I think its a valid argument. Is it a coincidence that Stargell's 4 best years were all at three rivers?
According to the book, 'the great one', Roberto made a decision to forego the long ball for a line-drive hitting approach, especially to the opposite field. The reason? Forbes Field ranked as the hardest park for home run hitters. Coach Danny Murtaugh stated that Clemente could hit 25-40 home runs a year if he wanted to. Willie Stargell stated in a 1992 interview that Pirates players including Clemente lost about 20 home runs a year playing at Forbes Field.
Well, Stargell wasn't one of the players whose first years were his best, nor was Clemente. They both followed the normal pattern of improving to a peak in their late 20s/early 30s and then declining from there. What "many players" other than Stargell and Clemente may or may not have done may be interesting to look at, but it isn't relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, I've read a lot of stories about this or that player "electing" to not hit HRs, and I think either they're true stories and both the player and manager are sorta stupid, or they're not true and what really happened is that the player wasn't good enough to hit many home runs and concocted a story to put a better spin on it. In any event, the story means nothing, and every player is evaluated based on what he actually did not what his manager and teammate say they think he mighta coulda done.
Which is not to say that Forbes Field didn't cost Clemente HRs. It almost surely did, although it cost him nowhere even in the ballpark of 20 a year. It cost Stargell more, though, since he was the better hitter, so again I don't think it's a point that changes anything.
And with just a little poking around I see that Clemente hit 7 homers a year at home and 9 homers a year on the road. So it looks like Forbes cost him about 2 homers a year. Unless, that is, you're saying that because Clemente played his home games at Forbes he "elected" not to hit HRs when he was on the road in Atlanta and Chicago, etc. If you think Clemente was that stupid, I disagree. I think he was an 18 HR a year guy playing in a park that made him a 16 HR a year guy. Worth noting, but it doesn't amount to a whole lot. Forbes, by the way, cost Stargell about 4 HR per year. Three Rivers cost him about 1 HR per year; easier than Forbes, but still tougher than average.`
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
Many players put up better numbers in their first 7 or 8 seasons, so I think its a valid argument. Is it a coincidence that Stargell's 4 best years were all at three rivers?
According to the book, 'the great one', Roberto made a decision to forego the long ball for a line-drive hitting approach, especially to the opposite field. The reason? Forbes Field ranked as the hardest park for home run hitters. Coach Danny Murtaugh stated that Clemente could hit 25-40 home runs a year if he wanted to. Willie Stargell stated in a 1992 interview that Pirates players including Clemente lost about 20 home runs a year playing at Forbes Field.
Well, Stargell wasn't one of the players whose first years were his best, nor was Clemente. They both followed the normal pattern of improving to a peak in their late 20s/early 30s and then declining from there. What "many players" other than Stargell and Clemente may or may not have done may be interesting to look at, but it isn't relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, I've read a lot of stories about this or that player "electing" to not hit HRs, and I think either they're true stories and both the player and manager are sorta stupid, or they're not true and what really happened is that the player wasn't good enough to hit many home runs and concocted a story to put a better spin on it. In any event, the story means nothing, and every player is evaluated based on what he actually did not what his manager and teammate say they think he mighta coulda done.
Which is not to say that Forbes Field didn't cost Clemente HRs. It almost surely did, although it cost him nowhere even in the ballpark of 20 a year. It cost Stargell more, though, since he was the better hitter, so again I don't think it's a point that changes anything.
And with just a little poking around I see that Clemente hit 7 homers a year at home and 9 homers a year on the road. So it looks like Forbes cost him about 2 homers a year. Unless, that is, you're saying that because Clemente played his home games at Forbes he "elected" not to hit HRs when he was on the road in Atlanta and Chicago, etc. If you think Clemente was that stupid, I disagree. I think he was an 18 HR a year guy playing in a park that made him a 16 HR a year guy. Worth noting, but it doesn't amount to a whole lot. Forbes, by the way, cost Stargell about 4 HR per year. Three Rivers cost him about 1 HR per year; easier than Forbes, but still tougher than average.`
And If one buys into Clemente sacrificing home runs for line drives then his batting average surely would have suffered going for the long ball. Of course maybe he had the magical power to only convert singles and doubles into home runs and not strike out or fly out more.
You can't have it both ways unless you just want to ignore the facts.
The records speak for themselves
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I choose to believe what Clemente's teammate and manager says, because they knew him better than anyone on a message board.
Clemente and Stargell's OBP percentage is almost identical. But anyone who strikes out 50 more times a year is not a better hitter in my opinion.
What you are ignoring is that Clemente might have struck out 50 or more additional times a year if going for the long ball. His average would have suffered as well. He might of hit for less of an average then Stargell. All if and buts.....
All we know for sure are the numbers they both actually put up versus what may have happened.
Stargell was the better and more feared hitter
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Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Richie Hebner once told me that Stargell told him he could hit .370 a year if he sacrificed the long ball for line drives . His manager whispered in his ear, " chicks dig the long ball" and thus the saying was born. Stargell's home run prowess protected a lot of Pirates.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Originally posted by: garnettstyle That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
Be prepared to be amazed and bemused.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Originally posted by: garnettstyle That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
By your logic Harmon Killebrew was a better hitter than Clemente. Please show me a top 100 list that has Killebrew a better hitter.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Interesting thread- I really just don't subscribe to the notion that it makes sense to select a single best All-Time player from each team. Perhaps an all-star line up from each team would be a more realistic and meaningful objective...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Its kind of difficult to debate you about anything, as when someone makes a good point you just ignore it. What about Clementes' 166 triples. Don't point out again how few stolen bases he had, remember he had the Great Willie Stargell hitting behind him. Why attempt a stolen base when Stargell can get you in from first base. Clemente had well above average speed.
Also, why do strikeouts not mean anything at all. Have you studied all of Stargell or Schmidts' strikeouts? Was there nobody on base for all of those strikeouts? Surely not. So a contact hitter, even if making an out, could have moved many of those runners over a base instead of stranding them where they are. Is that not in itself meaningful?
That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
By your logic Harmon Killebrew was a better hitter than Clemente. Please show me a top 100 list that has Killebrew a better hitter.
How about perhaps the number one authority's top 100 list Bill James. That only took one minute:
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yet he led the league in GIDP twice and ground into a whopping 275 double plays in his career. That's a lot of extra outs and a lot worse than striking out.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Thank you, and since this one is just fine I won't waste any time finding a dozen more lists where Killebrew is ahead of Clemente. And James list is best players and includes defense, in which Clemente beats Killebrew handily. Meaning that, as hitters, Killebrew beats Clemente even more handily.
Darin - you keep making points that you present as hypothetical when you can just look up the answer. Clemente attempted to steal 9 bases per 162 games before Stargell was in the lineup; with Stargell in the lineup he attempted 10 steals per 162 games. I'm willing to say it made no difference, but technically Clemente tried to steal a base MORE often with Stargell than without him.
And I like to think that I have never not responded to a good point that anyone made. But stating that strikeouts matter doesn't make it so; they matter a tiny bit at the margins but not enough to change anything I've said in this thread. And I have mentioned Clemente's triples, directly and indirectly. I'm giving Clemente full credit for hitting a lot of triples. It's just that his triples and singles don't come close to matching Stargell's or Killebrew's homers and walks.
If player A gets on base more often than Player B, and if when Player A gets on base he is further along the basepath than Player B when Player B gets on base, and assuming they played in roughly the same conditions like Stargell and Clemente, then Player A is a better hitter than Player B. Stargell was a better hitter than Clemente.
And technically, my question about Schmidt was dodged rather than answered. I suspect that the answer was going to make me chuckle, though. If there is a list anywhere that shows Clemente higher than Schmidt, I would be shocked and dismayed. You should be, too. If you don't see why, then I don't know what I can do to help.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Schmidt and Killebrew is a much better comparison as they were both similar batters with similar goals at the plate. I would agree Mike was better, I would not rate him 42 spots higher than Killebrew.
Clemente was a far superior BA type hitter and was considered much better hitter during his time than Harmon. Killebrew didn't make it into the HOF until 1984!
The importance of walks has risen and the value of BA has been reduced by today's numbers crunchers, (a little too much on both counts in my opinion) thus really hurting Roberto's statistical "value" (and helping sluggers like Killebrew and Schmidt). A .317 lifetime BA is still quite impressive. He was doing just what he was being asked to do and did it extremely well, after all, (even today) a hit is still better than a walk. I will concede that a few more walks would have been nice for Clemente's numbers, although with Dick Stuart and later Stargell coming up behind him, pitchers were probably not going to want to issue a walk. It's hard to walk when the pitches are in the strike zone.
I can still remember a criticism of Killebrew's batting back in the day "all he does is hit homeruns". He has been quoted as saying he really didn't think about batting average during his career, he didn't think that's what he was up there to do. I remember what my father said once when Killebrew was at bat; "watch this Joey, here comes the old unintentional intentional walk". The pitcher threw four pitches nowhere near the strike zone and Harmon took his base. Great for his statistics today, but a victory for the terrified pitcher and opposing manager THAT day!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Great discussion, fellas. Hope you guys don't mind if a hoops fan trespasses. I've had about all of the Stephen Curry-wouldn't-have-been-nearly-as-effective-back-in-the-days-of-Oscar Robertson nonsense that I can handle, so I'd rather talk hardball.
First and foremost, I'm a huge Clemente fan. He died the year I was born, so naturally I never saw him play. If I had, without question he would've been my fav player. Not only for what he accomplished on the field, but also because of his selfless nature off of it. If there was a HoA (Hall of Altruism), not only would he waltz in, but he'd rank near the very top of inductees. It's for all of these reasons I collect cardboard with his likeness on it, and admittedly I do not own a ton of graded cards.
That said, I'll be succinct with some of my opinions and loquacious with others...
With regard to the greatest Pirate to ever play the game, Honus Wagner takes the prize and it's not even close. Top-5 player (of all time) in my book.
Willie Stargell was a better offensive weapon than Roberto Clemente. For crying out loud, Pops won the MVP at age 39. That is sick.
Roberto Clemente was a better all-around player than Willie Stargell. I think it's human nature to discount a player's defensive prowess, as it's inherently sexier to perform calculations that were initiated inside a batter's box. With that being said, it's sometimes easy to underappreciate plays like this that impact the game just as profoundly as a ball leaping off of a bat. The aforementioned example? In my eyes it's the offensive equivalent of bringing a guy home from first with a double, rather than moving him to third (and ultimately stranded) with a "mere" single. Bottom line: You can influence the outcome of a game with defense, too, and Clemente did that regularly to the tune of 12 GGs over the course of his career.
I do not think Clemente was a burner, but I also do not think his speed was average. Perhaps a better way to put it is that he may have been more quick than fast. And for an outfielder, that's huge. Top-notch reaction time can mitigate deficiencies that take place once a pair of legs start churning. Going back to the clip above, sure, we all saw the cannon attached to Clemente's arm. But could he have reacted and positioned himself any better to take on that carom? Sure doesn't look like it, and ultimately that was just as important as being able to reach home on the fly to (at least temporarily) prevent that run from scoring.
I don't know what anyone's stance is when it comes to WAR, but in theory it comes across as a very telling statistic. How many wins a player adds to a team above what a hypothetical Joe Schmoe would seems to possess substantial intrinsic merit on its face. On the career list (linked below), Clemente is ranked very high at 26. For comparative purposes, Killebrew sits at 115 and Stargell at 132:
And finally, thought you guys might find this interesting. I went to the Hall a few years ago and stumbled across this 1952 scouting report by Al Campanis when Clemente was a teenager with Santurce:
Not sure how I feel about WAR, but in Killebrew's case from 1959 to 1971 he averaged 40 HR a year (that includes two years where he was hurt and averaged 21). Seems like that wasn't done by too many players....................ever. I would think that would translate to a lot of wins above any replacement player. Yes, I am sure there are many more factors that come into play. Killebrew was not much of a baserunner! Usually he simply jogged around after hitting a tater! LOL
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
That throw was amazing. Lorenzo Cain scored on a similar play against Bautista in the playoffs. Baustista threw towards second and Cain scored. Note the baseball instincts of Clemente, no throwing to second for him. What a player!
Galaxy- Thanks for settling the speed argument. Plus speed says the very well respected Al Campanis. Grote- Sometimes hitting into double plays can mean you're really ripping the ball, just right at fielders, as Clementes' .317 career BA suggests. GIDP stats can be very misleading. Unless you're Billy Butler, he grounds into a bunch of DP's and is extremely slow.
Grote- Sometimes hitting into double plays can mean you're really ripping the ball, just right at fielders,
as Clementes' .317 career BA suggests. GIDP stats can be very misleading
That is an optimistic way at looking at it, lol. Batting average can be (and is) a much more misleading stat, however, when looking at the big picture.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Wow Clementes double plays were because he was ripping balls right into defenders gloves and his singles would have been homers if he wanted them to be. I truley underestimated his unnatural powers. He was apparently an XMen.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Clemente was a great player, no question about it, and deserves to be in the HOF. These debates are always fun when comparing one player to another, and in the case of Clemente and Stargell, the gap is not particularly wide, in any case.
Now, if we were comparing Willie Stargell or Roberto Clemente to Jim Rice...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
BTW- the argument about his speed officially ended when
Galaxy posted that scouting report, you guys can move
on to something else.
So let the record show he had above average speed and still grounded into a world of hurt double plays. Great arm, great feel for the game. Great average. Non event as a base runner. Average power compared to those in the top 100 players which he comfortably falls into.
BTW you or Garnettstyle don't need to bend or interpret Clemente's statistics. They are exactly what they are. They were good enough without the need to embellish.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am glad to see some love for Willie. Someone mentioned his 79 season. It was indeed amazing with all the awards he won that year at age 39. His baseball cards are way under valued.
I also think that the Cobra should be in the hall of fame.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Hopefully this thread has proved one thing; grounding into a lot of double plays does not prove a player is slow! I am assuming that a batter can also hit a line drive and a player on base can get doubled off a base, or a batter can hit a fly ball and a slow runner can get thrown out trying to advance.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Growing up I loved both Kaline and Clemente. They were class acts and seemed like mirror images to me at the time. Clemente better average and Kaline better power. Both owned the gold glove in their respective leagues and had cannon for arms.
Not much difference between them. In the end Kaline by a hair.
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Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Originally posted by: Justacommeman Growing up I loved both Kaline and Clemente. They were class acts and seemed like mirror images to me at the time. Clemente better average and Kaline better power. Both owned the gold glove in their respective leagues and had cannon for arms.
Not much difference between them. In the end Kaline by a hair.
mark
Kaline is under rated, he was a SUPERB baseball player. I like his consistency, players get a lot of credit for their big years and often have a lot of small years. This guy was great year in and year out. Didn't miss many games either.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Originally posted by: JoeBanzai Didn't miss many games either.
Actually, Kaline missed a LOT of games. In his 11 of his 21 full seasons, he played less than 140 games. That includes a stretch of 7 straight seasons from 1967 to 1973. Before that, he generally played 145 games every year, with 1962 being an exception. That year, he was well on his way to an MVP trophy (.304, 29 HRs, 94 RBI in just 100 games) before getting hurt and ending his season.
Al was a GREAT player. I'm too young to remember his career (born in 1972) but he was/is a legend in Detroit. You won't find anybody with a bad word to say about Al in Michigan, that's for sure. I've met him once, as a young child at a local bank where he was doing some kind of autograph appearance. He was signing 8x10 posters for free. I was...7? 8? Somewhere around there and was absolutely terrified at meeting him. He was very, very kind and I'll always be grateful.
Originally posted by: JoeBanzai Didn't miss many games either.
Actually, Kaline missed a LOT of games. In his 11 of his 21 full seasons, he played less than 140 games. That includes a stretch of 7 straight seasons from 1967 to 1973. Before that, he generally played 145 games every year, with 1962 being an exception. That year, he was well on his way to an MVP trophy (.304, 29 HRs, 94 RBI in just 100 games) before getting hurt and ending his season.
Al was a GREAT player. I'm too young to remember his career (born in 1972) but he was/is a legend in Detroit. You won't find anybody with a bad word to say about Al in Michigan, that's for sure. I've met him once, as a young child at a local bank where he was doing some kind of autograph appearance. He was signing 8x10 posters for free. I was...7? 8? Somewhere around there and was absolutely terrified at meeting him. He was very, very kind and I'll always be grateful.
I would respectfully disagree on him missing a LOT of games. From 1954 to 1964 he was able to get 500 or more AB's every year but one and play in at least 136 games in every year but one. Most of those years were 154 games seasons. No Cal Ripken, for sure, but I don't know how many games the average player missed so I guess it COULD be regarded as a lot. In looking at Kaline and Clemente they both averaged 135 games per year for their entire careers. Stargell averaged 118. Schmidt 141!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I would respectfully disagree on him missing a LOT of games. From 1954 to 1964 he was able to get 500 or more AB's every year but one and play in at least 136 games in every year but one. Most of those years were 154 games seasons. No Cal Ripken, for sure, but I don't know how many games the average player missed so I guess it COULD be regarded as a lot. In looking at Kaline and Clemente they both averaged 135 games per year for their entire careers. Stargell averaged 118. Schmidt 141!
Kaline missed a lot of games in his 30s, but was something of an iron man in his 20s. Kaline was more durable than Clemente when they were young, but Clemente lasted longer.
Schmidt was always pretty durable. To get 141 you have to count the year he retired in May as a season, and the 1981 strike season as a full season. If you adjust for those years, you get more like 151.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I would respectfully disagree on him missing a LOT of games. From 1954 to 1964 he was able to get 500 or more AB's every year but one and play in at least 136 games in every year but one. Most of those years were 154 games seasons. No Cal Ripken, for sure, but I don't know how many games the average player missed so I guess it COULD be regarded as a lot. In looking at Kaline and Clemente they both averaged 135 games per year for their entire careers. Stargell averaged 118. Schmidt 141!
Kaline missed a lot of games in his 30s, but was something of an iron man in his 20s. Kaline was more durable than Clemente when they were young, but Clemente lasted longer.
Schmidt was always pretty durable. To get 141 you have to count the year he retired in May as a season, and the 1981 strike season as a full season. If you adjust for those years, you get more like 151.
I forgot about 1981 and did count his final year. He was almost NEVER out of the lineup. Hank Aaron and Frank Robinson earned their paychecks too! Mays was about the same as Kaline and Clemente.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I would respectfully disagree on him missing a LOT of games. From 1954 to 1964 he was able to get 500 or more AB's every year but one and play in at least 136 games in every year but one. Most of those years were 154 games seasons. No Cal Ripken, for sure, but I don't know how many games the average player missed so I guess it COULD be regarded as a lot. In looking at Kaline and Clemente they both averaged 135 games per year for their entire careers. Stargell averaged 118. Schmidt 141!
We're both correct. He didn't miss a lot of games (except 1962) his first decade or so. But he missed a ton of games after that. I would say if you're missing 18+ games a year (12% of a 154 game schedule), you're missing a lot of games.
I would respectfully disagree on him missing a LOT of games. From 1954 to 1964 he was able to get 500 or more AB's every year but one and play in at least 136 games in every year but one. Most of those years were 154 games seasons. No Cal Ripken, for sure, but I don't know how many games the average player missed so I guess it COULD be regarded as a lot. In looking at Kaline and Clemente they both averaged 135 games per year for their entire careers. Stargell averaged 118. Schmidt 141!
We're both correct. He didn't miss a lot of games (except 1962) his first decade or so. But he missed a ton of games after that. I would say if you're missing 18+ games a year (12% of a 154 game schedule), you're missing a lot of games.
I googled "how many games does a MLB player miss on average a year?" and didn't get any results.
Any of you guys that are good with stats know how to figure it out?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I would respectfully disagree on him missing a LOT of games. From 1954 to 1964 he was able to get 500 or more AB's every year but one and play in at least 136 games in every year but one. Most of those years were 154 games seasons. No Cal Ripken, for sure, but I don't know how many games the average player missed so I guess it COULD be regarded as a lot. In looking at Kaline and Clemente they both averaged 135 games per year for their entire careers. Stargell averaged 118. Schmidt 141!
We're both correct. He didn't miss a lot of games (except 1962) his first decade or so. But he missed a ton of games after that. I would say if you're missing 18+ games a year (12% of a 154 game schedule), you're missing a lot of games.
I googled "how many games does a MLB player miss on average a year?" and didn't get any results.
Any of you guys that are good with stats know how to figure it out?
Dallas might be your Huckelberry.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
How many games a player "misses" depends on how many games he could have played but didn't, and as far as I know there's no stat kept that filters out September call-ups, retirements, players sent to the minors, etc. There's also a large group of utility guys who don't really "miss" a game even though they may not get to play in every game despite being healthy and rested. In other words, there's no way to tell from published data. My wild ass guess, though, is 36.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Comments
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Here is Clemente vs Stargell, top 10 seasons:
Clemente
171
168
160
152
150
146
146
143
138
136
Stargell
186
185
168
164
163
163
158
148
145
139
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What, no Ted Williams?
Teddy Ballgame, 19 years with the Boston Red Sox, the Kid accomplished this:
17 All Star appearances
2 time American League MVP
6 time American League batting champ
2 time Triple Crown winner
finished with a .344 batting average; 521 HRs; .482 OBP highest all-time
He joined the Navy/Marines in 1943 and served 3 years - in his prime during WWII
He was a Marine combat pilot from 1952 - 1953, serving during the Korean war.
Elected to the HOF in 1966 in his first year of eligibility.
He became (in reality created) the Jimmy Fund in Boston, which has raised untold millions for cancer care & research, primarily for children.
As I kid in the mid-50s, I saw he and Mickey Mantle play in Fenway Park. I'd press my little transistor radio to my ear during the summer to hear Curt Gowdy call his at bats and fielding plays. "Hey neighbor, have a Gansett", a local Boston beer was the radio ad...how sweet those days were!
I knew he and Mantle were special then, but now the memories are even more precious. What could Ted have accomplished had he not served when he answered the call?
Ted was awesome! Had he not missed those years fighting for our country, his numbers would have been staggering!!!!
Dallas-
I've had three favorite players ever since I was a kid... Clemente, Stargell, and Brett so I really don't care
if I lose this discussion anyway.lol.
But I still say Clemente was a better hitter than Stargell based on a lifetime batting avg. 35 points higher.
Yes, Stargell was better at drawing walks, but as far as talent at actually swinging the bat, batting average IS what matters.
Mike Donlin's batting average was 35 points higher than Mickey Mantle's. If Mike Donlin had still been alive and was offered the opportunity to carry Mickey Mantle's jockstrap, he would have jumped at it. A higher batting average doesn't really mean anything. Clemente had a batting average 35 points higher than Stargell, and yet Stargell still got on base more often than Clemente. And, in the average time he got on base he got further around the bases. On base more often + advancing further = better. You are focusing on Clemente's singles and, I think, assuming that they are far more valuable than Stargell's walks. They are a little more valuable, but not that much. And the small advantage to Clemente for getting on first base by singles vs. by walks is obliterated by Stargell's enormous home run advantage.
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
And it is clear from their comments that when they are selecting the best player from a given team that they are considering only what a player did for that team, and not for any other teams he may have played for. So I'm fine with Ripken over F. Robinson for the Orioles, and Rose over Morgan for the Reds and a couple of others.
The one pick that I seriously object to is Chuck Finley on the Angels. Finley was a fine pitcher, but the best Angel in history is Jim Fregosi. Fregosi had the misfortune of playing in the deadball era on a really bad team in a really tough hitters park, so about all he's remembered for is being traded for Nolan Ryan late in his career. But Jim Fregosi was a great player. He didn't appear on many league leaders because of his home park, but he was in the top 10 in offensive WAR eight straight years and is in the top 200 all-time for offensive WAR and for total WAR for position players. That's not quite HOF level, but it is higher than Jim Rice who some people seem to think was a HOF level player. Maybe he was, but he was not as good as Jim Fregosi.
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
Many players put up better numbers in their first 7 or 8 seasons, so I think its a valid argument. Is it a coincidence that Stargell's 4 best years were all at three rivers?
According to the book, 'the great one', Roberto made a decision to forego the long ball for a line-drive hitting approach, especially to the opposite field. The reason? Forbes Field ranked as the hardest park for home run hitters. Coach Danny Murtaugh stated that Clemente could hit 25-40 home runs a year if he wanted to. Willie Stargell stated in a 1992 interview that Pirates players including Clemente lost about 20 home runs a year playing at Forbes Field.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
Many players put up better numbers in their first 7 or 8 seasons, so I think its a valid argument. Is it a coincidence that Stargell's 4 best years were all at three rivers?
According to the book, 'the great one', Roberto made a decision to forego the long ball for a line-drive hitting approach, especially to the opposite field. The reason? Forbes Field ranked as the hardest park for home run hitters. Coach Danny Murtaugh stated that Clemente could hit 25-40 home runs a year if he wanted to. Willie Stargell stated in a 1992 interview that Pirates players including Clemente lost about 20 home runs a year playing at Forbes Field.
Well, Stargell wasn't one of the players whose first years were his best, nor was Clemente. They both followed the normal pattern of improving to a peak in their late 20s/early 30s and then declining from there. What "many players" other than Stargell and Clemente may or may not have done may be interesting to look at, but it isn't relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, I've read a lot of stories about this or that player "electing" to not hit HRs, and I think either they're true stories and both the player and manager are sorta stupid, or they're not true and what really happened is that the player wasn't good enough to hit many home runs and concocted a story to put a better spin on it. In any event, the story means nothing, and every player is evaluated based on what he actually did not what his manager and teammate say they think he mighta coulda done.
Which is not to say that Forbes Field didn't cost Clemente HRs. It almost surely did, although it cost him nowhere even in the ballpark of 20 a year. It cost Stargell more, though, since he was the better hitter, so again I don't think it's a point that changes anything.
And with just a little poking around I see that Clemente hit 7 homers a year at home and 9 homers a year on the road. So it looks like Forbes cost him about 2 homers a year. Unless, that is, you're saying that because Clemente played his home games at Forbes he "elected" not to hit HRs when he was on the road in Atlanta and Chicago, etc. If you think Clemente was that stupid, I disagree. I think he was an 18 HR a year guy playing in a park that made him a 16 HR a year guy. Worth noting, but it doesn't amount to a whole lot. Forbes, by the way, cost Stargell about 4 HR per year. Three Rivers cost him about 1 HR per year; easier than Forbes, but still tougher than average.`
And garnett, your point about each of their homers won't fly. You are comparing the peak of Clemente's career, to the beginning of Stargell's. It's like comparing Stargell's 700 worst at bats to 700 average at bats for Clemente. Three Rivers, by the way, was a tough hitter's park. That Stargell's HR improved when he went there was a result of Stargell improving much more so than the park being easier. Stargell's 1971 and 1973 seasons were better - much better - than any seasons Clemente ever had.
Many players put up better numbers in their first 7 or 8 seasons, so I think its a valid argument. Is it a coincidence that Stargell's 4 best years were all at three rivers?
According to the book, 'the great one', Roberto made a decision to forego the long ball for a line-drive hitting approach, especially to the opposite field. The reason? Forbes Field ranked as the hardest park for home run hitters. Coach Danny Murtaugh stated that Clemente could hit 25-40 home runs a year if he wanted to. Willie Stargell stated in a 1992 interview that Pirates players including Clemente lost about 20 home runs a year playing at Forbes Field.
Well, Stargell wasn't one of the players whose first years were his best, nor was Clemente. They both followed the normal pattern of improving to a peak in their late 20s/early 30s and then declining from there. What "many players" other than Stargell and Clemente may or may not have done may be interesting to look at, but it isn't relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, I've read a lot of stories about this or that player "electing" to not hit HRs, and I think either they're true stories and both the player and manager are sorta stupid, or they're not true and what really happened is that the player wasn't good enough to hit many home runs and concocted a story to put a better spin on it. In any event, the story means nothing, and every player is evaluated based on what he actually did not what his manager and teammate say they think he mighta coulda done.
Which is not to say that Forbes Field didn't cost Clemente HRs. It almost surely did, although it cost him nowhere even in the ballpark of 20 a year. It cost Stargell more, though, since he was the better hitter, so again I don't think it's a point that changes anything.
And with just a little poking around I see that Clemente hit 7 homers a year at home and 9 homers a year on the road. So it looks like Forbes cost him about 2 homers a year. Unless, that is, you're saying that because Clemente played his home games at Forbes he "elected" not to hit HRs when he was on the road in Atlanta and Chicago, etc. If you think Clemente was that stupid, I disagree. I think he was an 18 HR a year guy playing in a park that made him a 16 HR a year guy. Worth noting, but it doesn't amount to a whole lot. Forbes, by the way, cost Stargell about 4 HR per year. Three Rivers cost him about 1 HR per year; easier than Forbes, but still tougher than average.`
And If one buys into Clemente sacrificing home runs for line drives then his batting average surely would have suffered going for the long ball. Of course maybe he had the magical power to only convert singles and doubles into home runs and not strike out or fly out more.
You can't have it both ways unless you just want to ignore the facts.
The records speak for themselves
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Clemente and Stargell's OBP percentage is almost identical, but Stargell struck out 50 more times a year.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I choose to believe what Clemente's teammate and manager says, because they knew him better than anyone on a message board.
Clemente and Stargell's OBP percentage is almost identical. But anyone who strikes out 50 more times a year is not a better hitter in my opinion.
What you are ignoring is that Clemente might have struck out 50 or more additional times a year if going for the long ball. His average would have suffered as well. He might of hit for less of an average then Stargell. All if and buts.....
All we know for sure are the numbers they both actually put up versus what may have happened.
Stargell was the better and more feared hitter
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
8. Honus Wagner
15. Pete Rose
36. Roberto Clemente
84. Willie Stargell
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1098327-the-100-greatest-hitters-in-mlb-history
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
Be prepared to be amazed and bemused.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
By your logic Harmon Killebrew was a better hitter than Clemente. Please show me a top 100 list that has Killebrew a better hitter.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Its kind of difficult to debate you about anything, as when someone makes a good point you just ignore it.
What about Clementes' 166 triples. Don't point out again how few stolen bases he had, remember he had
the Great Willie Stargell hitting behind him. Why attempt a stolen base when Stargell can get you in from first base.
Clemente had well above average speed.
Also, why do strikeouts not mean anything at all. Have you studied all of Stargell or Schmidts' strikeouts?
Was there nobody on base for all of those strikeouts? Surely not. So a contact hitter, even if making an out, could
have moved many of those runners over a base instead of stranding them where they are.
Is that not in itself meaningful?
That's your opinion. One year Stargell led the league in strikeouts. Clemente was the better hitter.
You keep mentioning that Stargell struck out more often than Clemente as if it means something important. It doesn't mean anything important. It doesn't mean anything at all. It will continue to not mean anything at all no matter how many times you mention it. Now matter how much you want to believe it. Devoid of meaning. Forever.
Mike Schmidt struck out a lot more than Clemente, and his batting average was 50 points lower than Clemente's. He was also so much better than Clemente that I bring him up only to test you. Explain why Clemente was better than Stargell but not better than Schmidt, and I'll react to that argument. But if you tell me that Clemente was better than Schmidt then I know I can just laugh and end this silliness.
By your logic Harmon Killebrew was a better hitter than Clemente. Please show me a top 100 list that has Killebrew a better hitter.
How about perhaps the number one authority's top 100 list Bill James. That only took one minute:
21- Schmidt
63- Killebrew
74-Clemente
James Top 100
BTW Killebrew was a better hitter then Clemente.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yet he led the league in GIDP twice and ground into a whopping 275 double plays in his career. That's a lot of extra outs and a lot worse than striking out.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
21- Schmidt
63- Killebrew
74-Clemente
James Top 100
BTW Killebrew was a better hitter then Clemente.
Thank you, and since this one is just fine I won't waste any time finding a dozen more lists where Killebrew is ahead of Clemente. And James list is best players and includes defense, in which Clemente beats Killebrew handily. Meaning that, as hitters, Killebrew beats Clemente even more handily.
Darin - you keep making points that you present as hypothetical when you can just look up the answer. Clemente attempted to steal 9 bases per 162 games before Stargell was in the lineup; with Stargell in the lineup he attempted 10 steals per 162 games. I'm willing to say it made no difference, but technically Clemente tried to steal a base MORE often with Stargell than without him.
And I like to think that I have never not responded to a good point that anyone made. But stating that strikeouts matter doesn't make it so; they matter a tiny bit at the margins but not enough to change anything I've said in this thread. And I have mentioned Clemente's triples, directly and indirectly. I'm giving Clemente full credit for hitting a lot of triples. It's just that his triples and singles don't come close to matching Stargell's or Killebrew's homers and walks.
If player A gets on base more often than Player B, and if when Player A gets on base he is further along the basepath than Player B when Player B gets on base, and assuming they played in roughly the same conditions like Stargell and Clemente, then Player A is a better hitter than Player B. Stargell was a better hitter than Clemente.
And technically, my question about Schmidt was dodged rather than answered. I suspect that the answer was going to make me chuckle, though. If there is a list anywhere that shows Clemente higher than Schmidt, I would be shocked and dismayed. You should be, too. If you don't see why, then I don't know what I can do to help.
Clemente was a far superior BA type hitter and was considered much better hitter during his time than Harmon. Killebrew didn't make it into the HOF until 1984!
The importance of walks has risen and the value of BA has been reduced by today's numbers crunchers, (a little too much on both counts in my opinion) thus really hurting Roberto's statistical "value" (and helping sluggers like Killebrew and Schmidt). A .317 lifetime BA is still quite impressive. He was doing just what he was being asked to do and did it extremely well, after all, (even today) a hit is still better than a walk. I will concede that a few more walks would have been nice for Clemente's numbers, although with Dick Stuart and later Stargell coming up behind him, pitchers were probably not going to want to issue a walk. It's hard to walk when the pitches are in the strike zone.
I can still remember a criticism of Killebrew's batting back in the day "all he does is hit homeruns". He has been quoted as saying he really didn't think about batting average during his career, he didn't think that's what he was up there to do. I remember what my father said once when Killebrew was at bat; "watch this Joey, here comes the old unintentional intentional walk". The pitcher threw four pitches nowhere near the strike zone and Harmon took his base. Great for his statistics today, but a victory for the terrified pitcher and opposing manager THAT day!
First and foremost, I'm a huge Clemente fan. He died the year I was born, so naturally I never saw him play. If I had, without question he would've been my fav player. Not only for what he accomplished on the field, but also because of his selfless nature off of it. If there was a HoA (Hall of Altruism), not only would he waltz in, but he'd rank near the very top of inductees. It's for all of these reasons I collect cardboard with his likeness on it, and admittedly I do not own a ton of graded cards.
That said, I'll be succinct with some of my opinions and loquacious with others...
With regard to the greatest Pirate to ever play the game, Honus Wagner takes the prize and it's not even close. Top-5 player (of all time) in my book.
Willie Stargell was a better offensive weapon than Roberto Clemente. For crying out loud, Pops won the MVP at age 39. That is sick.
Roberto Clemente was a better all-around player than Willie Stargell. I think it's human nature to discount a player's defensive prowess, as it's inherently sexier to perform calculations that were initiated inside a batter's box. With that being said, it's sometimes easy to underappreciate plays like this that impact the game just as profoundly as a ball leaping off of a bat. The aforementioned example? In my eyes it's the offensive equivalent of bringing a guy home from first with a double, rather than moving him to third (and ultimately stranded) with a "mere" single. Bottom line: You can influence the outcome of a game with defense, too, and Clemente did that regularly to the tune of 12 GGs over the course of his career.
I do not think Clemente was a burner, but I also do not think his speed was average. Perhaps a better way to put it is that he may have been more quick than fast. And for an outfielder, that's huge. Top-notch reaction time can mitigate deficiencies that take place once a pair of legs start churning. Going back to the clip above, sure, we all saw the cannon attached to Clemente's arm. But could he have reacted and positioned himself any better to take on that carom? Sure doesn't look like it, and ultimately that was just as important as being able to reach home on the fly to (at least temporarily) prevent that run from scoring.
I don't know what anyone's stance is when it comes to WAR, but in theory it comes across as a very telling statistic. How many wins a player adds to a team above what a hypothetical Joe Schmoe would seems to possess substantial intrinsic merit on its face. On the career list (linked below), Clemente is ranked very high at 26. For comparative purposes, Killebrew sits at 115 and Stargell at 132:
WAR leaders
And finally, thought you guys might find this interesting. I went to the Hall a few years ago and stumbled across this 1952 scouting report by Al Campanis when Clemente was a teenager with Santurce:
Keep the discourse flowing...
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Not sure how I feel about WAR, but in Killebrew's case from 1959 to 1971 he averaged 40 HR a year (that includes two years where he was hurt and averaged 21). Seems like that wasn't done by too many players....................ever. I would think that would translate to a lot of wins above any replacement player. Yes, I am sure there are many more factors that come into play. Killebrew was not much of a baserunner! Usually he simply jogged around after hitting a tater! LOL
Lorenzo Cain scored on a similar play against Bautista in the playoffs.
Baustista threw towards second and Cain scored.
Note the baseball instincts of Clemente, no throwing to second for him.
What a player!
Galaxy- Thanks for settling the speed argument. Plus speed says the very well
respected Al Campanis.
Grote- Sometimes hitting into double plays can mean you're really ripping the ball, just right at fielders,
as Clementes' .317 career BA suggests. GIDP stats can be very misleading.
Unless you're Billy Butler, he grounds into a bunch of DP's and is extremely slow.
as Clementes' .317 career BA suggests. GIDP stats can be very misleading
That is an optimistic way at looking at it, lol. Batting average can be (and is) a much more misleading stat, however, when looking at the big picture.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
He was the Great One!
BTW- the argument about his speed officially ended when
Galaxy posted that scouting report, you guys can move
on to something else.
Now, if we were comparing Willie Stargell or Roberto Clemente to Jim Rice...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Not an Xman, just a man.
He was the Great One!
BTW- the argument about his speed officially ended when
Galaxy posted that scouting report, you guys can move
on to something else.
So let the record show he had above average speed and still grounded into a world of hurt double plays. Great arm, great feel for the game. Great average. Non event as a base runner. Average power compared to those in the top 100 players which he comfortably falls into.
BTW you or Garnettstyle don't need to bend or interpret Clemente's statistics. They are exactly what they are. They were good enough without the need to embellish.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I also think that the Cobra should be in the hall of fame.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Not much difference between them. In the end Kaline by a hair.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Growing up I loved both Kaline and Clemente. They were class acts and seemed like mirror images to me at the time. Clemente better average and Kaline better power. Both owned the gold glove in their respective leagues and had cannon for arms.
Not much difference between them. In the end Kaline by a hair.
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Kaline is under rated, he was a SUPERB baseball player. I like his consistency, players get a lot of credit for their big years and often have a lot of small years. This guy was great year in and year out. Didn't miss many games either.
Didn't miss many games either.
Actually, Kaline missed a LOT of games. In his 11 of his 21 full seasons, he played less than 140 games. That includes a stretch of 7 straight seasons from 1967 to 1973. Before that, he generally played 145 games every year, with 1962 being an exception. That year, he was well on his way to an MVP trophy (.304, 29 HRs, 94 RBI in just 100 games) before getting hurt and ending his season.
Al was a GREAT player. I'm too young to remember his career (born in 1972) but he was/is a legend in Detroit. You won't find anybody with a bad word to say about Al in Michigan, that's for sure. I've met him once, as a young child at a local bank where he was doing some kind of autograph appearance. He was signing 8x10 posters for free. I was...7? 8? Somewhere around there and was absolutely terrified at meeting him. He was very, very kind and I'll always be grateful.
Didn't miss many games either.
Actually, Kaline missed a LOT of games. In his 11 of his 21 full seasons, he played less than 140 games. That includes a stretch of 7 straight seasons from 1967 to 1973. Before that, he generally played 145 games every year, with 1962 being an exception. That year, he was well on his way to an MVP trophy (.304, 29 HRs, 94 RBI in just 100 games) before getting hurt and ending his season.
Al was a GREAT player. I'm too young to remember his career (born in 1972) but he was/is a legend in Detroit. You won't find anybody with a bad word to say about Al in Michigan, that's for sure. I've met him once, as a young child at a local bank where he was doing some kind of autograph appearance. He was signing 8x10 posters for free. I was...7? 8? Somewhere around there and was absolutely terrified at meeting him. He was very, very kind and I'll always be grateful.
I would respectfully disagree on him missing a LOT of games. From 1954 to 1964 he was able to get 500 or more AB's every year but one and play in at least 136 games in every year but one. Most of those years were 154 games seasons. No Cal Ripken, for sure, but I don't know how many games the average player missed so I guess it COULD be regarded as a lot. In looking at Kaline and Clemente they both averaged 135 games per year for their entire careers. Stargell averaged 118. Schmidt 141!
Kaline missed a lot of games in his 30s, but was something of an iron man in his 20s. Kaline was more durable than Clemente when they were young, but Clemente lasted longer.
Schmidt was always pretty durable. To get 141 you have to count the year he retired in May as a season, and the 1981 strike season as a full season. If you adjust for those years, you get more like 151.
Kaline missed a lot of games in his 30s, but was something of an iron man in his 20s. Kaline was more durable than Clemente when they were young, but Clemente lasted longer.
Schmidt was always pretty durable. To get 141 you have to count the year he retired in May as a season, and the 1981 strike season as a full season. If you adjust for those years, you get more like 151.
I forgot about 1981 and did count his final year. He was almost NEVER out of the lineup. Hank Aaron and Frank Robinson earned their paychecks too! Mays was about the same as Kaline and Clemente.
We're both correct. He didn't miss a lot of games (except 1962) his first decade or so. But he missed a ton of games after that. I would say if you're missing 18+ games a year (12% of a 154 game schedule), you're missing a lot of games.
We're both correct. He didn't miss a lot of games (except 1962) his first decade or so. But he missed a ton of games after that. I would say if you're missing 18+ games a year (12% of a 154 game schedule), you're missing a lot of games.
I googled "how many games does a MLB player miss on average a year?" and didn't get any results.
Any of you guys that are good with stats know how to figure it out?
We're both correct. He didn't miss a lot of games (except 1962) his first decade or so. But he missed a ton of games after that. I would say if you're missing 18+ games a year (12% of a 154 game schedule), you're missing a lot of games.
I googled "how many games does a MLB player miss on average a year?" and didn't get any results.
Any of you guys that are good with stats know how to figure it out?
Dallas might be your Huckelberry.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......