Is there something to do about this shill bidding?

Dennis88

It's driving me crazy. Here's an example, sold on eBay on 12/28 for $132.50. Winner was 2***l (147) who outbid me:

First Auction

Now, the item is up again, ending in a few hours, and guess who the high bidder is? Yep, 2***l (147), who has 100% bidding activity with this seller.

Today's auction

This seller is one of the larger sellers in the world currency categories and does this on just about any listing. Why in the world is eBay not doing anything? I guess he must pay fees on all the listings his shill bidders buy and eBay is happy to slide it by....

Dennis

Maxcrusha

unless the seller lets him out of the transaction... and then the fee goes POOF

Tookybandit

That is sad, I have purchased from this seller in the past and I do not recall this taking place 1+ years ago.

Alex1176

He is not "one of the largest", he is THE SELLER. Every sale he has few notes that every decent notes museum department will be happy to have. Notes that are real national heritage. Like this, for example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thailand-Royal-Siamese-Treasury-1-Tical-1918-25-PCGS-64-Rare-/311549615176?
Ebay is letting him do this kind of things because he brings to them tons of money in fees.

gnat

Yes, could do something. But, how effective it would be is uncertain.



Create a new ebay id. Win an auction. If there is shill bidding on that auction leave negative feedback. The seller will likely block that id.

TigerTrader

He does this all the time. I have and will buy from him because he has great material. I don't like it and IF I think I am getting shilled I might stop bidding but ultimately I never pay more than I am willing to bid...



Look at his location, Business Ethics or Ethics in general vary greatly in that part of the world. Just as they do at times with individual sellers everywhere... It is not a PC opinion but it is true.

Jim61

Well following the pattern of the shill bids, I see seller has an auction, price isn't what he wants as a minimum, so just before close a shill bid is placed to preserve his preconceived bid amount he wants.



Or simply stated, it is a blind reserve. IMHO.

Dennis88

I'm curious what will happen now, as it seems that the last old bid is now his shill bidders bid.

I agree about the secret reserve kind of thing. I know who he is (even though I have never met him personally, even though I have set up at a show in Hong Kong and will do so again in June) but it's just something that I don't think is right. But that's just me, and I'm just a small fish in a big pond.

techwriter

Originally posted by: Tookybandit

That is sad, I have purchased from this seller in the past and I do not recall this taking place 1+ years ago.

Same here but I'm like Tiger when I see or sense shill bids--I'm done.

beryl

Essentially a hidden reserve - now I know why I had the same experience on another one of his notes - he has nice notes though but I can't say I like the "other" PCGS (banknote) holders.

larry510

I see so much shill bidding on ebay all the time it's crazy. I report it each time using ebay's report item link but I don't think anything is done about it as the same seller's repeat the shilling process long after I report it.

SYRACUSIAN

Originally posted by: beryl

Essentially a hidden reserve - now I know why I had the same experience on another one of his notes - he has nice notes though but I can't say I like the "other" PCGS (banknote) holders.

It's because PCGS coins along with PCGS/banknotes opened an office at Hong Kong, just like in Beijing and Paris before these two, so it's very convenient to him to submit large quantities of notes, several duplicates included that he sells week after week, or at a slower rhythm . If you look at his items for a period of 6 months, there are a lot of popular world notes that are being sold over and over again, such as a few from France, Comoros, and many many more.





Now regarding the OP ,I'm sorry that you missed it the first time, because in fact the shill dropped his hidden reserve to $128 in the second auction, clearly because said seller told him to, expecting someone else to win it, because he cannot cancel TOO many auctions, most of which ,won by this guy . If he had stopped at the same amount the first time around, you would have easily won it at one increment above with your bid. I'm wishing you better luck next time.

DepressionscripGuy

Shill bidding has been going on for many many years on Ebay. Here's a lengthy article all about it: Link

notehunter494

When I am looking to purchase at any auction anywhere I have a price in mind and that is what I will bid whether live or with a snipe and I could care less who else is bidding or shilling. What I really hate is dealing with any auction that has a reserve. It is a waste of time.

Jim61

Welcome aboard notehunter494! I hope you keep posting here.

Ted 1

There was an eBay user sometime back with an id of minhle who'd relist the same notes week after week, always private bids, items were all listed as sold as well. He mostly ran auctions on lowball notes.

DepressionscripGuy

Originally posted by: notehunter494

When I am looking to purchase at any auction anywhere I have a price in mind and that is what I will bid whether live or with a snipe and I could care less who else is bidding or shilling. What I really hate is dealing with any auction that has a reserve. It is a waste of time.

Yes, it usually means that someone has put a high selling price on a reserve item, but there are many good reasons for a reserve as well. It's a shame that you think it's a waste of time to bid on a reserve item. I'm never afraid to bid on a reserve auction....several times I've been surprised the reserve was lower than expected when I placed my bid. Alot of times, I am curious to see what the reserve is. I bid what I think the item is worth / I'm willing to pay for it.

notehunter494

I'll tell you why it is a waste of time from my point of view wrt eBay auctions. First I need to move quick, no playing footsie for me. Say I see something I need with the bid at $25 reserve not met. I bid or put a snipe in at $150 because I need it. Next bidder, if any, bids $30 reserve still not met. When it is all said and done my bid is placed and I am in for the next bid increment...reserve still not met. Maybe the reserve was $50 or who knows and the seller has no idea that I would have been glad to pay so much more to own the item. Without a competing bidder to go against my bid the thing just sits at the low next bid increment. The whole idea is frustrating. The first thing I ask if I have to have something and it is a reserve auction is "what is your reserve". If I don't get an answer I am gone, and believe me it has to be for an item I really want or I just don't bother.



Instead of a reserve why not just man up and put a High start price, or a real High price and "Best Offer" feature so as not to waste time. In this way my price is known to the buyer and it is up to them.

notehunter494

And while I am venting let me tell you another situation that has been on eBay for about a year. The sellers who list as "part of a live event" . Like what is eBay, a dead event. These "sellers" and their accompanying lousy feedback have an additional buyers fee, usually 18% and sketch shipping options if any. I do not even know if or how to place a snipe with such an auction and in the "time is money" scheme of things I just cannot scroll past their listings fast enough.

DanCong

a reserve is hard set, meaning it is decided at the time of the listing. if you feel something is worth $150 and the opening bid is $25 with a reserve, and you bid your best and it is either above the reserve or below. If your maximum bid is above the reserve, your bid meets the reserve and you are winning. If your maximum bid is below the reserve, then you would be at $30, in the lead, but not going to take it home. You know exactly where you are.
With shilling bidding, you think you are winning, and then the shill bumps up the price. That is the real waste of time.

DepressionscripGuy

Originally posted by: DanCong

a reserve is hard set, meaning it is decided at the time of the listing. if you feel something is worth $150 and the opening bid is $25 with a reserve, and you bid your best and it is either above the reserve or below. If your maximum bid is above the reserve, your bid meets the reserve and you are winning. If your maximum bid is below the reserve, then you would be at $30, in the lead, but not going to take it home. You know exactly where you are.

With shilling bidding, you think you are winning, and then the shill bumps up the price. That is the real waste of time.

Exactly... It doesn't matter if you put in your max bid either early or as a snipe. As soon as you do that, if you are above the reserve, the bid will jump to the reserve price. If you are below the reserve, it will jump to the current high bid above all other bidders.



Done - doesn't take any more time than a normal bid. But, shill bidders are even more common on reserve auctions. The shill bidder will bid at the last second just under the reserve price to see if they can push anyone over the edge.

notehunter494

Yes DanCong in the real world of auction this is true. Your high bid above the reserve will put you at high bid just above the reserve and with further room until you are outbid or you win at the high bid. My past experience on eBay has been that a bid of $150 on a $25 reserve not met price puts me at $26 reserve not met and if no one else bids that is how the auction will end. $26 reserve not met. Now that may have changed, I would not know as I have avoided bidding on reserve auctions. Let me know. Thanks

YQQ

In some countries, Shill bidding is illegal and police will follow up. However, proving it is other matter.

YQQ

as long as you have snipes, shill bidding will be active

DanCong

I don't see the relationship between shill bidding and sniping. In fact, in a silent auction type scenario (which is basically all bids are 0 second snipes), one type of shill bidder would be ineffective. The shill who keeps pushing the price up in a "bidding war" would not work. In the "hidden reserve" type of shill (a single bid which is the seller's undeclared reserve) - sniping would have no effect. The seller will protect their price with a shill bid unless a current bid is higher than their "reserve". In fact, sniping will cause headaches for the shill as, let's say someone is willing to bid $234.50 at the last second but the seller wants $235. The current price is far lower as lots of people bid at the last second. The shill wins, but the seller needs to pay fees and relist the item - all to "preserve" 50 cents of "profit"

Alex1176

Originally posted by: DanCong
I don't see the relationship between shill bidding and sniping. In fact, in a silent auction type scenario (which is basically all bids are 0 second snipes), one type of shill bidder would be ineffective. The shill who keeps pushing the price up in a "bidding war" would not work. In the "hidden reserve" type of shill (a single bid which is the seller's undeclared reserve) - sniping would have no effect. The seller will protect their price with a shill bid unless a current bid is higher than their "reserve". In fact, sniping will cause headaches for the shill as, let's say someone is willing to bid $234.50 at the last second but the seller wants $235. The current price is far lower as lots of people bid at the last second. The shill wins, but the seller needs to pay fees and relist the item - all to "preserve" 50 cents of "profit"

In this scenario, the seller will send a "second chance offer" to the highest real bidder, as the shill "does not want it anymore".

SYRACUSIAN

Not necessarily. Well known sellers do not make second chance offers, especially if they have a shill that every other week ends up winning a few notes from the seller. They simply relist the items.



I had to look hard to resurrect this thread, and I've already posted this once, full of links, but some code error appeared and it was lost, so now, I'm simplifying it, reducing the links to a minimum.



I've been looking to buy a French note, a 50 francs from the late 40s, early 50s with a rather futuristic design to couple it with my 100 francs from the same period. In Pick numbers the 50 francs is P127 and the 100 francs is P128, with a,b,c,d that distinguish different dates and mostly signatures.



As it turned out, I found out that the item I was after was practically a readily available item, that was being sold no reserve almost every week by two different Hong Kong based sellers. One of them was the seller mentioned in the OP, let's call him seller A and the other was seller B.



The first thing I did was to check their sold listings. Seller B, had sold 4 such notes and has the 5th ending today, with realized prices from as low as $62.00 (Feb 23) to $126.00 (Jan. 24). Seller A, (the one mentioned in the OP) did not have such big differences: he had a minimum of $99.00 to $113.50, 3 auctions all together with a 4th ending today.



I've looked at the one that closed at $99.00 and the winner was 2****l (148) -his feedback increased by one since this thread was posted, but not because of that French note, he never left/received feedback to/from the seller and I've checked 15 pages of feedback of the latter-. Like I said, both sellers have this note ending today, and because seller's B note had a good start, I estimated that it's going to sell for $110-$125. On the other hand, seller's A note was about $20 lower than seller's B note, until a few hours ago: that's when his shill intervened, probably placing his hidden reserve of $99, and now the difference between the 2 notes has fallen to $8.00.



Alarmed by this thread, I've started checking the S/Ns of the sold notes by seller A. The one won by 2****l (148) at $99.00 had a S/N B13401372. The last sold note by the same seller, won by a legit bidder for $113.50 and without the interference of 2****l (148) , had the next S/N, ie B13401373. The one that he's selling now and that's ending in a few hours, is the one won by his shill: the S/N is B13401372.



Look for yourself:



current auction



closed auction won by 2****l (148)



Conclusion: seller A has decided to not sell this note for less than $100 (in fact one of his 3 sold notes sold for exactly $100, with 2***l (146) as underbidder at $99.00). Seller B on the other hand, leaves them untouched and I'll have to wait for a less enthusiastic start in the bidding of said note, in order to win it at $70-$85. Otherwise, I choose seller A, but in that case, I know for a fact that I'll pay a minimum of $100.00, which is quite frustrating when I know that only a month ago, a similar note was sold by seller B for $62.00.



Now, let's see if this reply will pass the dreadful code error XXX or if I'll have to write it up for a third time.

SYRACUSIAN

Results.



Seller's A note sold for exactly $100 (and you guessed the underbidder: 2****l (146) @ $99.00)



Seller's B note sold for $89.00 (I didn't see that coming with the momentum it had initially taken, I should have left my snipe, oh well).

HistoryMajor

amazing stuff SYRACUSIAN . Let's hope your note will appear on EBAY from a different seller than A or B

Tookybandit

Originally posted by: HistoryMajor

amazing stuff SYRACUSIAN . Let's hope your note will appear on EBAY from a different seller than A or B

I was thinking that too!