Matte Proof Coin Information Request

Jackthecat1

Hello,

I am asking the members of this forum for any information they may have about this coin:



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This is what I know about it:

1. As the label indicates, it is a 1906 German Empire Baden Wedding Anniversary 2 Mark coin which has been certified as Matte Proof-62 ATS.

2. I purchased it at the 2014 NYINC from a highly reputable dealer in world coins.

3. The Standard Catalog indicates a proof mintage of 200 with no value listed. The business strike is relatively common.

4. 1906 was in the middle of the matte proof era (1902 GB Coronation Proof Set, 1909-1916 US Minors and Gold, etc.)

5. There were two other German Empire coins with matte proof features, but only on the obverse (1904 Hesse-Darmstadt 2 and 5 Marks).

6. Total certified population is PCGS-0, NGC-1.



Any other information or ideas as to where I can look for same would be greatly appreciated.



Thank you, Jack.

Zohar

All I can say is that you did very well in buying this coin. I believe you will have better luck searching in the German language. I haven't seen any of these come up for sale. How many collectors for these? Who knows, but its very nice having something so special. Congrats.

JCMhouston

Unfortunately the Germans were not very good at keeping track of things like this so I know of no resources that quantify numbers. I've seen a couple of matte proofs of other 20th C. commems but no one seems to know how many there were of them, in any case they all seem to be very rare.

YQQ

my suggestion is this:
send an email to moneytrend in Austria:
moneytrend@webway.at
attention Helmut Caspar. he is the expert, and or Volker Weege (he is the publisher and owner)
OR, any large auction house can help... possibly.
did you check HA old archives?

But better and sharper images might be needed.
sorry, that is the best that comes to mind.
good luck

Jackthecat1

Thank you for the suggestions. Matte proofs have not been very well documented to my knowledge, although here are some sources which discuss the US issues.

neildrobertson

Did you get any more info on this?

It is my understanding that the first well-documented proofs were the 1913-A issues, that's not to say that everything made after that was well documented. I think I've seen a proof of this type (maybe 5 mark) in a recent auction, but I can't remember where. It's not something I'd normally be looking for.

Jackthecat1

I am still looking for information on this coin and any other Imperial matte proof issues.



Krause does not list any other 20th Century German Empire silver coins as being issued in matte proof except for the two 1904 Hesse-Darmstadt coins, obverse only. I can vouch for this as I have a proof 2 Mark and the contrast between matte obverse and brilliant reverse is quite vivid.



The 1906 Baden Anniversary 5 Mark is not listed as being matte finish, but that is not impossible. Other States might have also issued matte proofs, but I have no evidence of that.



All of the other Imperial Proof coins in my collection are brilliant, some with outstanding cameos.



The limited independence of the States in matters such as coinage gives credence to the hypothesis that individual mint or Treasury officials or even Royals might have gotten the opportunity to indulge their artistic whims. This was the period when matte proofs flourished in several countries.



I will continue to look for information and will add to this thread if I find any. Any further commentary or sources would be greatly appreciated.

neildrobertson

My Muenzen und Sammeln "PP-Muenzen" book has Jaeger # 30, 31, 34, and 35 listed as only being in "mattierte". I think, depending on who you ask in Germany, it may not be considered " PP" or proof based on how they are annotated in the Jaeger catalog. Regardless, the coin type appears to be particularly rare. They weren't willing to list a price for it in the PP-Muenzen price guide because "in PP nicht bekannt". I don't know if that means it's so rare that the prices aren't known, or if PP examples aren't known because they are mattierte. It lists a few others as having known matte examples, such as the 1916F Wurttemburg 3 mark, and the 1913 Saxony 3 Mark Leipzig memorial coins.

The book I'm referring to is this: PP-Muenzen

YQQ

If this book is only about matt coins, then it makes sense.

PP is the German equivalent to PROOF.
in PP nicht bekannt"means they "not known in Proof". but the way it is frazed, they leave the door open for it to be possible that there are some..
translated : Not known yet in proof. and has nothing to do with matt, unless the whole book or a specific chapter is all about matt coins.
german lingo has its tricks... I grew up with it.

neildrobertson

Originally posted by: YQQ
If this book is only about matt coins, then it makes sense.

PP is the German equivalent to PROOF.
in PP nicht bekannt"means they "not known in Proof". but the way it is frazed, they leave the door open for it to be possible that there are some..
translated : Not known yet in proof. and has nothing to do with matt, unless the whole book or a specific chapter is all about matt coins.
german lingo has its tricks... I grew up with it.

Yeah. Since my German is not my first language, I just wrote it verbatim. The section of the catalog is focusing on PP coins and my interpretation is the same as yours. And Germans seem to be particular about their definitions of what constitutes a polierte platte coin and seem to delineate them from matte as well as business strikes.

Jackthecat1

Thank you for the information. I will look into this book.