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When were these US coins extinct from circulation?
stevepk
Posts: 238 ✭✭✭
Until when did popular United States coins cease to circulate due to hoarding as novelty or unusual items? Below are my guesses based on absolutely no research whatsoever. If anyone has a better answer than a guess, please share it.
Flowing hair, draped bust, classic head gold, and pre-1816 copper coins probably could be found through circulation until about 1890 when people first started collecting US coins. The ANA was founded about this time and is probably about the time early US coins first disappeared from circulation. Capped Bust coinage ended in 1838 and probably circulated until about the 1890's as well for the same reason.
Large cents and flying eagle cents were probably removed by about 1900 as they were at least 40 years old and most people had become accustomed to Indian cents by then. Indian head cents could probably be found with a bit of patience until about 1960 with some patience as suggested by an old episode of 'Dennis the Menace'.
Three cent silvers and nickels were probably gone by about 1910 as they were a bit abnormal to begin with. Seated Liberty coinage ended in 1891 and probably circulated for another twenty or thirty years. By 1930, virtually all seated liberty coins were probably extinct from circulation. This included seated half dimes, dimes, twenty cent pieces, quarters, and half dollars. Keep in mind by 1930, earlier seated liberty coins were approaching 90 years in age.
Morgan dollars, Peace dollars, standing liberty quarters, walking liberty halves, and franklin halves were probably no longer to be found in circulation by 1965 due to the end of the silver era. Buffalo nickels and Liberty nickels had no silver content and could probably be found in circulation until about 1970, with a Liberty nickel find to be very rare. Once again, this is all a guess.
Any opinions, or even better yet, hard factual evidence, will be appreciated.
Flowing hair, draped bust, classic head gold, and pre-1816 copper coins probably could be found through circulation until about 1890 when people first started collecting US coins. The ANA was founded about this time and is probably about the time early US coins first disappeared from circulation. Capped Bust coinage ended in 1838 and probably circulated until about the 1890's as well for the same reason.
Large cents and flying eagle cents were probably removed by about 1900 as they were at least 40 years old and most people had become accustomed to Indian cents by then. Indian head cents could probably be found with a bit of patience until about 1960 with some patience as suggested by an old episode of 'Dennis the Menace'.
Three cent silvers and nickels were probably gone by about 1910 as they were a bit abnormal to begin with. Seated Liberty coinage ended in 1891 and probably circulated for another twenty or thirty years. By 1930, virtually all seated liberty coins were probably extinct from circulation. This included seated half dimes, dimes, twenty cent pieces, quarters, and half dollars. Keep in mind by 1930, earlier seated liberty coins were approaching 90 years in age.
Morgan dollars, Peace dollars, standing liberty quarters, walking liberty halves, and franklin halves were probably no longer to be found in circulation by 1965 due to the end of the silver era. Buffalo nickels and Liberty nickels had no silver content and could probably be found in circulation until about 1970, with a Liberty nickel find to be very rare. Once again, this is all a guess.
Any opinions, or even better yet, hard factual evidence, will be appreciated.
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They rest of your assumptions are probably good.
Based on that, I'd say that seated coinage definitely was still in circulation in the 1930s... and also rare enough to be noteworthy even to someone who wasn't able to put aside much at all.
My guess is that the depression kicked loose some old coinage that otherwise wouldn't have still be circulating...
Fwiw Walter Breen stated in his encyclopedia that 1853 A&R seated quarters circulated until the early 1940's. He saw one on a church collection plate in 1941. They were never pulled from circulation for melting as the earlier issues were. The reason was because they minted 15 million of them and when heavily worn, weren't worth any real premium....dealers refused to stock them until the 1950's. The only thing that saved them was the advent of type collecting in the 1970's. Regardless, they are still the most common seated date quarter by FAR. I suspect if the 1853 quarter made it to 1941, a fair amount of mid-19th century silver coinage might have also appeared in your change in the 1930's. It made sense to spend those common date AG-Fine seated quarters, not to admire them in an album.
Silver hit a low point of 28c per ounce in 1932. And with that logic, a Merc dime with a face value of 10c was worth less than 2c in metal content. It might as well have been a base metal clad. There was no real advantage to most common and heavily worn 19th century silver coinage even in the 1930-1945 period. It probably took silver back to 80c per ounce in 1946 to finally keep 19th century silver coinage out of circulation for good. Silver didn't get back above $1.00 per ounce until late 1961, about the point it started a strong 18 year bull run....and a reason to start saving silver coinage.
Historical Silver price chart
Pre-1853 silver coins were melted in large numbers when the sizes of silver coins were reduced in 1853. However, as we know now, Bust halves served as bank reserves in the 1840s and 1850s and so were spared melting, which is why so many of them are around today.
I think that the large cents disappeared from circulation pretty quickly after the small cents were introduced.
As far as what was actually in circulation, when I first started collecting coins in the mid- to late-1960s, Mercury dimes were still in circulation (mostly the 1930s and 1940s dates), as were Buffalo nickels (mostly without dates, but some from the 1930s had dates). I might have sen a Standing Liberty quarter, but I'm not sure. I never saw any Barber coinage, nor did I see many half dollars.
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By late 1964, they were much reduced. However buffaloes were still in circulation. A visiting engineer from California was amazed. He said none circulated out there.
The oldest coin I ever got in circulation was a slick 1782 Mexico City mint 8 real piece. Somebody passed it at the University of Maine school cafeteria about 1954. The only reason the cashier accepted it was because she knew I liked silver dollars. She shamed me into exchanging a dollar for it.
About 10 years ago I got a 1903 Indian Head cent in change from the supermarket.
My experience was the same though I would add that Walkers could also be found or obtained from the bank if you wanted halves.
A friend who served in the Peace Corps in Peru during the late 60's saw 19th century US silver including seated coins circulating there.
CG
"In Calendar Years 1925 through 1929, which I am using as my base period, the Treasury redeemed 47,643 large cents, for an average of 9,529 per year. In CY 1935 alone, they redeemed 24,536. (In case you were wondering, in the same base period they redeemed 128 half cents, vs. 32 in CY35.) Even the copper-nickel cents of 1857-64 were duly recorded, with 108,883 redeemed in CYs25-29, for an average of 21,767 per year, and 33,505 in CY35
In the odd denominations, in CYs25-29 they redeemed 27,809 two cent pieces, for an average of 5,562 per year. In CY35 they redeemed 16,277. In CYs25-29 they redeemed 16,070 three cent nickels, for an average of 3,214. In CY35 they redeemed 12,149!
In the silver denominations, in CYs25-29 they redeemed 11,158 3 c. pieces, for an average of 2,232 per year. In CY35 they redeemed 2,663, not a great increase. In CYs25-29 they redeemed 29,495 half dimes, for an average of 5,899 per year. In CY35 this rose to 8,191. The corresponding figures for twenty cent pieces were quite small, 569/ 112/ 70, actually showing a decrease in CY35. Trade dollars were generally scarce, with only 507 in CYs25-29 (average 101) but a surprising 900 pieces in CY35. More typical figures were reported for CY34 (26 pieces) and CY36 (10 pieces), again showing decreases from the pre-Depression average."
TD
I sold newspapers starting in the early 1970s and saw a lot of coins.
Never found a Buffalo.
War Nickels I did get occasionally up until about 1976-77, when they then became very tough to get.
Wheat cents maybe 2-3 a roll.
Never found a Merc., found a silver dime once in a while.
My best find as a kid was an AG 1902-O dime.
I was thrilled, I couldn't believe my luck.
I was the happiest newspaper boy in the city.
I remember very clearly that I made 2.3 cents for each paper I sold, and 7.5 cents for the huge telephone book Sunday editions.
The job taught me a lot about people, and working, and selling.
Selling was just so much fun--I loved it. I still do!
Oh no, I think I just hijacked my own response....
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Lafayette Grading Set
My grandfather owned a convenience store / market in New York City in the 1930s. The point was for him to make a living rather than to build a collection, so he wasn't able to save much. He did save a few pieces, though. Nothing interesting, numismatically, but there were a few seated dimes stashed away.
Based on that, I'd say that seated coinage definitely was still in circulation in the 1930s... and also rare enough to be noteworthy even to someone who wasn't able to put aside much at all.
My guess is that the depression kicked loose some old coinage that otherwise wouldn't have still be circulating...
In 1933 My grandfather received an 1843-O quarter in circulation in Chicago. He felt it was unusual enough to keep the coin. I have the coin today ... he gave it to me in 1956 ... it got me interested in coin collecting, though I didn't really start collecting until late 1961.
by roll searching back in the 50's and 60's.
CaptHenway. In the report that you mentioned was there any mention of circulated commemoratives being returned to the mint
No. Unless they were mutilated in some way, they should have been simply returned to circulation.
An old collector/dealer friend up in OH many years ago said he had a brother who assembled 3 complete roll sets of Barber halves
by roll searching back in the 50's and 60's.
Sorry, but I gotta call b.s. on that story. Not saying that he didn't tell you that, but I don't believe him.
An old collector/dealer friend up in OH many years ago said he had a brother who assembled 3 complete roll sets of Barber halves
by roll searching back in the 50's and 60's.
Sorry, but I gotta call b.s. on that story. Not saying that he didn't tell you that, but I don't believe him.
I don't believe it either. I lived in the Chicago area at that time and Barber coins were not in circulation at all. I have read that the last place Barber coins could actually be found in circulation was Puerto Rico.
it was his own little urban legend?
Certainly heavily worn Barber halves are still relatively abundant at shows, so they
must have been in circulation for a long time.
Well, I know that's what he told me, and he was a pretty straight shooter, but perhaps
it was his own little urban legend?
Certainly heavily worn Barber halves are still relatively abundant at shows, so they
must have been in circulation for a long time.
They show heavy wear because they saw heavy use. People didn't save half dollars since they had considerable buying power at that time. In addition, cash really was king in that era. Many people didn't have checking accounts and many more, who had lived through the depression, did not trust banks.
--never found and Indian cent, but usually could count on finding a wheat cent or two per week --never, unfortunately, a key date;
--never found a Liberty or Buffalo nickel; but did find Jefferson nickels from the 1930's and 1940's;
--never found a Barber or Mercury dime or even a silver Roosevelt;
--never found a Barber or S.L. quarter or even a silver Washington;
--never found a Barber or W.L or Franklin half; frequently found 40% Kennedy halves, though.
So the good stuff was pretty much gone from circulation by the mid-1970's. I had to be content with wheat cents, old Jeffersons and an occasional 40% Kennedy.
Still, it was a great job for a young guy. Taught me responsibility and I got a lot of exercise delivering papers 6 days out of the week.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
I know why they show heavy wear....that was my point. So why couldn't someone assemble rolls of them in the 1950's? There are thousands of heavily worn Barber halves in existence - I guess most of these were plucked out of circulation by collectors PRIOR to the fifties?
You could go to the bank and exchange paper dollars for silver dollars. I never got any better dates, and none of those dollars were Mint State.
CaptHenway - Please expound on this if possible. I thought trade dollars in this period were not redeemable. My 1948 Blue Book lists common trade dollars at 60 and 80 CENTS each depending on condition. I have a letter from the Treasury saying they did not consider trade dollars legal tender (under the 1933 act saying all United States coins whenever made are legal tender) until a judicial determination is made. I later asked if the cash room would redeem a trade dollar and they said yes, but the bullion value was more than face at that point. How I wish I had asked earlier.
trade dollars="" were="" generally="" _scarce2c_="" with="" 507="" in="" cys25-29="" _28_average="" _10129_="" but="" a="" surprising="" 900="" pieces="" cy35.=""
CaptHenway - Please expound on this if possible. I thought trade dollars in this period were not redeemable. My 1948 Blue Book lists common trade dollars at 60 and 80 CENTS each depending on condition. I have a letter from the Treasury saying they did not consider trade dollars legal tender (under the 1933 act saying all United States coins whenever made are legal tender) until a judicial determination is made. I later asked if the cash room would redeem a trade dollar and they said yes, but the bullion value was more than face at that point. How I wish I had asked earlier./trade
The charts in the annual mint reports said how many coins were redeemed. It did not say at what rate they were redeemed.
It is my understanding that back in the days of gold circulation heavily worn gold coins might be redeemed at less than face value. The same may have applied to Trade Dollars regardless of the amount of wear.
I will recheck the mint reports the next time I am down at the ANA Library.
TD
Buffalo nickels were not uncommon and Mercs/WLH's were very common. The occasional
Liberty nickel would show up, as well as Columbian halves from time to time.
Cheers, RickO
CaptHenway - Please expound on this if possible. I thought trade dollars in this period were not redeemable. My 1948 Blue Book lists common trade dollars at 60 and 80 CENTS each depending on condition. I have a letter from the Treasury saying they did not consider trade dollars legal tender (under the 1933 act saying all United States coins whenever made are legal tender) until a judicial determination is made. I later asked if the cash room would redeem a trade dollar and they said yes, but the bullion value was more than face at that point. How I wish I had asked earlier.
Interestingly the legal tender status of trade dollars was restored by the Coinage Act of 1965.
It's doubtful the FED would have redeemed them before this but it's unlikely many tried.
Once there the Treasury would redeem it for whatever they wanted to, and the amount included in the check sent back to the bank. Since the proceeds of the junk coin box probably always came back at a little bit less than face value, nobody cared that the Trade Dollar took a higher knock than the Morgan Dollar with a hole in it.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Anyways, my dad always loved a treasure hunt, and so whenever he got an obsolete coin in payment, he would keep it (and of course replace it in the till with a current coin from his own pocket). Over two years of doing this, he amassed a small box of Barber coins, with a very few seated coins and a handful of Liberty nickels thrown in. There was also two or three Morgan or Peace dollars. So these types were circulating, at face, in the 50's, though not in great numbers.
Interestingly, what the box did not contain included: IHCs, Buffs, Mercs, SLQs, WLHs. My dad did not consider those unusual enough to save.
Sadly, the box of coins was stolen in a break-in in the 1970s, and probably (according to the police at that time) spent at face value by the thief.
Rick Snow posted a fascinating thread several years ago with a contemporary report of coinage actually in circulation in 1902. Unfortunately, the pictures aren't available any more. Maybe a polite request would get a copy from him?
1902 Mint Report
Half dollars still circulated to some extent until at least the mid-70s, although they were never common, and the 40% silver coins were still around long after the 90% silver coins had disappeared. Similarly, it was probably the silver run-up in 1980 that caused war nickels to disappear from circulation; they were always around, if never common, before then.
Just an idle thought....I would imagine that by the 1920's most people did not know what a Trade Dollar was. If one popped up and got spent it would eventually find its way to a bank. If nobody there was a coin collector, it might end up in the box of "send these coins to the Treasury whenever we get around to it" coins that every bank had. It was and probably still is just a normal part of the banking business.
Once there the Treasury would redeem it for whatever they wanted to, and the amount included in the check sent back to the bank. Since the proceeds of the junk coin box probably always came back at a little bit less than face value, nobody cared that the Trade Dollar took a higher knock than the Morgan Dollar with a hole in it.
My grandmother, who was born in 1883, was a coin hoarder / collector. She became more of a collector because of my childhood influence. She spoke Trade Dollars as something of which she had heard, that "must be valuable," but beyond knew little about them until I acquired one as a collector. She came of a small southern Delaware town, but she was known to be quite the shopper who traveled more than most people did at the time. Her mother ran a millinery store in the center of town. This picture was taken circa 1900.
Sorry, I can't get the picture to upload.
Rick Snow posted a fascinating thread several years ago with a contemporary report of coinage actually in circulation in 1902. Unfortunately, the pictures aren't available any more. Maybe a polite request would get a copy from him?
https://archive.org/stream/ann...2unit#page/16/mode/2up">1902 Mint Report
Link does not work.
Rick Snow posted a fascinating thread several years ago with a contemporary report of coinage actually in circulation in 1902. Unfortunately, the pictures aren't available any more. Maybe a polite request would get a copy from him?
https://archive.org/stream/ann...2unit#page/16/mode/2up">1902 Mint Report
Link does not work.
They must prohibit linking to their page.
Just google "1902 Mint Report" and go to page 17.
The coins included myriad varieties of coins (mostly silver) from Europe, including some very old coins from German States, England, France, Spain, etc. She told me that it was explained to her by her family that they would take anything that resembled money as long as there was intrinsic value present. Of course most of the coins that were used as payment were current, circulating U.S. coins, but they only saved the odd pieces. It was a neat experience for me, as it was a time capsule of sorts.
I would think that during the 1930's you could find coins all the way back to 1853 in circulation, although Seated Liberty coins would have been very worn.
Today we find a 80 year-old nickel (1940) in circulation and we'll likely spend it. Same for a 50 year-old quarter (1965). In the 1930's a 50 year-old quarter was a 1880 Seated Liberty.
I recall about 10 years ago someone said they dug up a hoard of Bust half dollars buried in Death Valley. My first reaction was - no way. Mexican silver coins, maybe, but Bust halves hardly ever went west of the Mississippi. Turned out I was right. It was a hoax. Likewise, large cents would not have been spent by the Cartwright's in the 1860's and 1870's or ever. Cents never just were used out west.
Why would cents not be used out west?
I recall about 10 years ago someone said they dug up a hoard of Bust half dollars buried in Death Valley. My first reaction was - no way. Mexican silver coins, maybe, but Bust halves hardly ever went west of the Mississippi. Turned out I was right. It was a hoax. Likewise, large cents would not have been spent by the Cartwright's in the 1860's and 1870's or ever. Cents never just were used out west.
Why would cents not be used out west?
Too low a value. A half-bit was the base value coin.
A half-bit is a 1/2 real coin from Mexico. Valued at 6.25 cent, but a half dime would be used for the same value. A dime was a short bit, so I guess a half dime was a short half-bit.
As I recall, 10% or so was mercs and walkers. Less was SLQs.
I never saw a Barber in circulation.
I also had paper route in the late 60s. A very few Indian cents, Buffalos were much more common (than Indian cents), silver seemed to have dropped off a cliff.
I once found an 1895 liberty nickel in the street, full liberty but all beat up, and received a corroded 1896 nickel in change from a coin dealer (this did not constitute "in circulation).
Shortly before the treasury ceased redeeming silver certificates, a local coin shop was trading 3 walkers for a silver certificate.
I traded $44 face in silver certificates for $66 face walking liberty half dollars.
Shortly thereafter, I traded $64 in half dollars for a BU $20 gold.
I don't believe the story of 3 roll sets of barber halves out of circulation in the 50s and 60s either.
Steve
Why would a coin shop trade 3 halves for a dollar silver certificate? 3 Walking halves would have about 1.33 oz of silver versus .77 oz for the bill.
Probably impossible to quantify that one, as all it takes is 1.
For example, I picked up a $5 gold coin at SS Krege, forerunner of KMART, around 1965. Kid in front of me was trying to buy an album, cashier did not know what it was, so I produced a $5 bill, everyone happy. Was it circulating, or did somebody rip off grandpa's collection.
I believe it is public law, that everyone who went to Vietnam, had their childhood coin collection "ripped" by a younger sibling and spent on comic books.
When I get bored, I send out bad shape Buffalos, Liberty Nickels, dateless Indian Heads, Ike Dollars, etc. Although some are worth a tad more than face value, I am content to let someone else "hold" and give shelter to, a dateless Buffalo, for the next 15 years, and then realize, it is worth 5 cents.
My son did a Probability and Statistics practical exercise, buying $1000 in halves from the bank, and then charting the dates and mint marks versus the actual mintages. Of course, the silvers were woefully understated in the results, but he did come up with 1 tired Barber, 1 Walker, 2 Ben's, and , IIRC, about 10 40%'s. This was about 8 years ago, or so.
Vive la difference. When a coin is significantly different, human nature is to hold onto it. Ergo, small cents pushed out large cents, Lincolns pushed out IHC, memorials pushed out Wheaties. Really, what is the value of a worn out, gouged 1952-D penny? Let is go.
IMHO, no silver still circulates. A random coin escapes now and then, but is quickly rounded up and returned to captivity. I bet it does not change hands many times before it is pulled.