PCGS 30th Anniversary and the White Label PCGS Rattler!
illini420
Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
As you may already know, February 3, 2016 will be the exact 30th Anniversary of the beginning of PCGS.
It seems to be that the first version of the PCGS holder was the scarce white label rattler holder. Some collectors believe the white label rattler is a myth and that it's just a faded green label, but that is certainly not the case.
Five years ago, PCGS had a couple of these on display for their 25th Anniversary and Charmy had a photo in her February 2011 show report which I have copied below:
Still, five years later, little seems to be known about these holders. How many were produced? How long were they issued before the more common green label rattler became the standard?
I am not able to answer those questions, but I can help by showing some photos of one of the first PCGS certified coins.
To show the difference between that earlier white label and the regular green label rattlers, take a look at the following photos:
The reverse of the labels are nearly the same, but the lettering of the company name on the reverse of the white label holder is white, while the lettering on the reverse of the green label holder is green. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a great shot of that as the difference is very subtle.
Not only is the color of the label different, but the lettering appears to have been printed with different printers. The text of the white label rattler appears to have characters which are 7 dots in height, while the green label rattler appears to have characters which are 9 dots in height as shown below:
All examples I have seen have a certification number starting with 108XXXX. However, I have also seen many green label rattler coins on the market with 108XXXX certification numbers as well.
Anyone else have examples they can share and/or other information about these holders which were the very first issued by PCGS 30 years ago?
Finally, I will have this coin on display at my table at the upcoming Long Beach Coin Expo (February 4-6, 2016) for anyone who would like to see one of these in person. See you then!
It seems to be that the first version of the PCGS holder was the scarce white label rattler holder. Some collectors believe the white label rattler is a myth and that it's just a faded green label, but that is certainly not the case.
Five years ago, PCGS had a couple of these on display for their 25th Anniversary and Charmy had a photo in her February 2011 show report which I have copied below:
Still, five years later, little seems to be known about these holders. How many were produced? How long were they issued before the more common green label rattler became the standard?
I am not able to answer those questions, but I can help by showing some photos of one of the first PCGS certified coins.
To show the difference between that earlier white label and the regular green label rattlers, take a look at the following photos:
The reverse of the labels are nearly the same, but the lettering of the company name on the reverse of the white label holder is white, while the lettering on the reverse of the green label holder is green. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a great shot of that as the difference is very subtle.
Not only is the color of the label different, but the lettering appears to have been printed with different printers. The text of the white label rattler appears to have characters which are 7 dots in height, while the green label rattler appears to have characters which are 9 dots in height as shown below:
All examples I have seen have a certification number starting with 108XXXX. However, I have also seen many green label rattler coins on the market with 108XXXX certification numbers as well.
Anyone else have examples they can share and/or other information about these holders which were the very first issued by PCGS 30 years ago?
Finally, I will have this coin on display at my table at the upcoming Long Beach Coin Expo (February 4-6, 2016) for anyone who would like to see one of these in person. See you then!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
2
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BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
Looks like they invested in a better dot matrix printer.
If you look at the second picture of the green rattler, you can see subtle lines running horizontally through the insert. That is a good clue if you're looking at a listing with a bad picture.
I asked Van Simmons last year the history of the white rattler. He said it was a mistake - the printer delivered the wrong labels and they used them for a week until the intended green labels arrived.
Hard to know what the premium should be - lower for common Morgans, Mercs, etc and higher for scarcer type coins.
This is pretty cool stuff, I just wish that I could see the display in person.
My question is, and pardon me if these has been announced elsewhere. What was the FIRST coin graded and encapsulated by PCGS and where is it now?
Cert # 01080002 is a 1860 10C PR64.
Cert # 01080001 is not listed
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I asked Van Simmons last year the history of the white rattler. He said it was a mistake - the printer delivered the wrong labels and they used them for a week until the intended green labels arrived.
So the labels were error labels but since they were used in an intended fashion, it seems these would still be a non-error variety.
You'll notice a difference between the 1080 and 1081/2 serial number, seems two printers used in tandem leading to the different number styles and the location of the text at bottom vs. top of the label. Not worthy of a new generation, but just a side note.
It harkens back to the day when I actually understood how computers worked.
Can't believe it's been 30 years!
Only took about 14-15 years for them to certify mechanical Mint Error Coins;
What an impact that had on the error coin collecting hobby.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
You'll notice a difference between the 1080 and 1081/2 serial number, seems two printers used in tandem leading to the different number styles and the location of the text at bottom vs. top of the label. Not worthy of a new generation, but just a side note.
Seems much more likely that PCGS invested in a new printer with better resolution at some point than for them to use two different printers of different quality together. If we further assume that the certification numbers starting with 108xxxxx were issued sequentially at that time by PCGS, from the examples posted here in this thread it looks like that new and better printer would have been put in place sometime between cert. no. 1080805 and cert no. 1081045.
Some neat examples posted, very cool! Thanks for sharing them!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
OK, I think it was DUAL 9 pins, as at this link:
Google Books link
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I'm not so sure - this was a fledgling organization unsure of what the future held, not the mature PCGS we think of today.
Even later, it's hard to explain Doily labels that fall into generations 2, 3 and 3.5 - I suspect that different computers/printers and labels go a long way towards explaining that.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
You'll notice a difference between the 1080 and 1081/2 serial number, seems two printers used in tandem leading to the different number styles and the location of the text at bottom vs. top of the label. Not worthy of a new generation, but just a side note.
Seems much more likely that PCGS invested in a new printer with better resolution at some point than for them to use two different printers of different quality together. If we further assume that the certification numbers starting with 108xxxxx were issued sequentially at that time by PCGS, from the examples posted here in this thread it looks like that new and better printer would have been put in place sometime between cert. no. 1080805 and cert no. 1081045.
Some neat examples posted, very cool! Thanks for sharing them!
Too coincidental that all the 1080...s have one print setup and the 1081/2...s I've seen have a different one. Seems they had two printers, one starting at 1080 and the other at 1081. The end of the day though, silly conversation over printers.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
ok wth.
no white label rattler census thread?
.
*
Might be hard to start a census thread - most have been hoping to keep this below the radar and likely won't report.
we've been discussing these here for years.
.
Yep - I've been here for years.
But things slip to page 2 quickly and it takes a while for these things to gain traction/momentum.
For example, how often do you see "white rattler" in the title of an auction??
Just curious.
Anyone know why the earliest serial starts 108..... ?
Just curious.
I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to be approximately where the David Hall flips left off. That is just my observation and I could be wrong.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Interesting guess and you may be right.
Went through my photo files of the 60 or so flips I own and several have a 7 digit serial number starting 104... , 105...., 107.......
But - one has a 8 digit serial number starting 300.........
Based on earlier posts on this subject, I don't think Dave remembers.
Sweet.
Anyone know why the earliest serial starts 108..... ?
Just curious.
I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to be approximately where the David Hall flips left off. That is just my observation and I could be wrong.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to be approximately where the David Hall flips left off. That is just my observation and I could be wrong.
Interesting guess and you may be right.
Went through my photo files of the 60 or so flips I own and several have a 7 digit serial number starting 104... , 105...., 107.......
But - one has a 8 digit serial number starting 300.........
Based on earlier posts on this subject, I don't think Dave remembers.
Seems like a pretty good story to me. True, they issue (somewhat) random cert numbers now... but when you're starting a new company you have to start somewhere and I would be very surprised if that starting cert number was totally random.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Anyone know why the earliest serial starts 108..... ?
Just curious.
I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to be approximately where the David Hall flips left off. That is just my observation and I could be wrong.
PCGS USED TO number their labels linearly. All rattlers were linearly labeled.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
K
The numbers are still linear, but not always consecutive.
I have 5 Doilies with consecutive numbers, all MS65 Buffaloes, so it wasn't just the rattler era.
Also the first day of the Long Beach show today (for dealers, early birds and registry members who got the free invite). Again, will have this neat coin, one of the very first graded by PCGS 30 years ago, at my table all show
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Be sure to check out the PCGS sample display.
Howard
My YouTube Channel
When coins are reholdered, does PCGS assign a new number and remove the old holder # from the certification search engine?
No. If you have an older holder reholdered and it has a seven digit s/n, a zero is added to the front to make it an eight digit s/n.
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[URL=http://s944.photobucket.com/us...3_zpscnsilhjc.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s944.photobucket.com/user/psanders70gt/media/20160929_081808_zpskulc52ag.jpg.html]
And the new cert no.Is lower than the old one.
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Nice thread on the 108* holders...
He who knows he has enough is rich.
Strange how some of the labels look light but have the second style print
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Purchased what I think is the latest # known white rattler, 1.1 - - 1082378 - pictures once it arrives.
It makes sense that the 1.1 would overlap with the 1.2 - from what I know about PCGS, it didn't bother them to use up old stock while new stock was being used as well - either paper or plastic.
Great thread, thanks for sharing...
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