The biggest fear of counterfeit PCGS slabs
braddick
Posts: 24,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
In my mind's eye, the one untapped potential to the counterfeiters is placing legit coinage in counterfeit slabs that are a single point off.
It truly is the tag that is scrutinized along with the coin for counterfeit detection. Perfecting the plastic shell would be the easy part (after all, where do we suppose the genuine slabs are produced?).
Here is an easy example: A true MS64 1925-S Peace dollar is placed in a counterfeit slab with a bogus MS65 insert. This is a looming threat that will have consequences that are far more reaching than what we have now- fake coins in fake slabs.
There are more complex scenarios, but this one is easy enough to understand for the intent of this thread.
I wonder too, if that "MS65" Peace dollar was then sent in for TrueView if it would be photographed (remember, it is a legit U.S. coin) and then reholdered if it would get a different insert (and thus a genuine one). When an older green insert PCGS coin is sent in for TrueView is it returned with that same, original insert of a new, blue one?
Lots of different ways a counterfeiter could go if they become even slightly more creative.
(Another example: Sending in that "MS65" for crossover to NGC.)
Other workarounds are available too, many undetected in the end.
Not a fleeting thought, this had been bugging me for awhile now.
It truly is the tag that is scrutinized along with the coin for counterfeit detection. Perfecting the plastic shell would be the easy part (after all, where do we suppose the genuine slabs are produced?).
Here is an easy example: A true MS64 1925-S Peace dollar is placed in a counterfeit slab with a bogus MS65 insert. This is a looming threat that will have consequences that are far more reaching than what we have now- fake coins in fake slabs.
There are more complex scenarios, but this one is easy enough to understand for the intent of this thread.
I wonder too, if that "MS65" Peace dollar was then sent in for TrueView if it would be photographed (remember, it is a legit U.S. coin) and then reholdered if it would get a different insert (and thus a genuine one). When an older green insert PCGS coin is sent in for TrueView is it returned with that same, original insert of a new, blue one?
Lots of different ways a counterfeiter could go if they become even slightly more creative.
(Another example: Sending in that "MS65" for crossover to NGC.)
Other workarounds are available too, many undetected in the end.
Not a fleeting thought, this had been bugging me for awhile now.
peacockcoins
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Comments
In my mind's eye, the one untapped potential to the counterfeiters is placing legit coinage in counterfeit slabs that are a single point off.
It truly is the tag that is scrutinized along with the coin for counterfeit detection. Perfecting the plastic shell would be the easy part (after all, where do we suppose the genuine slabs are produced?).
Here is an easy example: A true MS64 1925-S Peace dollar is placed in a counterfeit slab with a bogus MS65 insert. This is a looming threat that will have consequences that are far more reaching than what we have now- fake coins in fake slabs.
There are more complex scenarios, but this one is easy enough to understand for the intent of this thread.
I wonder too, if that "MS65" Peace dollar was then sent in for TrueView if it would be photographed (remember, it is a legit U.S. coin) and then reholdered if it would get a different insert (and thus a genuine one). When an older green insert PCGS coin is sent in for TrueView is it returned with that same, original insert of a new, blue one?
Lots of different ways a counterfeiter could go if they become even slightly more creative.
(Another example: Sending in that "MS65" for crossover to NGC.)
Other workarounds are available too, many undetected in the end.
Not a fleeting thought, this had been bugging me for awhile now.
Much easier to read now.
peacockcoins
If you refuse to use this PCGS free service (aka setregistry service), it is your problem and you shouldn't cry here.
Thanks LanceNewmanOCC!
Much easier to read now.
welcome mr. moo
reading as intended gives essential context and allows me to make a worthy contribution in the simple form of a lowly quote.
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One of the advantages to NGC is that every single coin is photographed, thus eliminating this exact scenario. In the last 5 years, I personally have spotted more than 10 wrong coins in legit looking slabs because of NGC's online photos, thus able to avoid buying them.
One of the advantages to NGC is that every single coin is photographed, thus eliminating this exact scenario. In the last 5 years, I personally have spotted more than 10 wrong coins in legit looking slabs because of NGC's online photos, thus able to avoid buying them.
PCGS Secure could help solve this since since PCGS includes photographs with Secure.
PCGS Secure is required for world coins. Would requiring PCGS Secure help resolve this for US coins?
My take on Secure is that, based on the cost, it is best suited to those coins that of very high value (subjective to each of us) and which increase in value exponentially with a + or one grade bump.
My thoughts have focused on incorporating Truview into more of the grading transactions in the middle of the value pool (ie those coins where faking holder with different coin is profitable). Once you have to fake a coin to match a Truview image things get much harder for the crooks.
I was thinking about the viability of offering a per coin Truview discount if ordered on an entire order of X coins or greater. Or finding the right price point where increasing the grading fee by $3-$5 and doing a Truview on all coins submitted. The happy medium being the balance between PCGS making some money on the process on the front end, while acknowledging that they also make money on the back end through a more secure and viable hobby.
ive been wondering if pcgs went to sp on anything over like $1k or $5k for usa coins or something as a hedge if it would stymie the counterfeit submissions or at least what would slip through.
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is more than likely one of us. ie inside job
PCGS Secure is required for world coins. Would requiring PCGS Secure help resolve this for US coins?
No there are about 30 million out there already.
PCGS Secure is required for world coins. Would requiring PCGS Secure help resolve this for US coins?
So would they just call it PCGS then since that would include all coins...?
One of the advantages to NGC is that every single coin is photographed, thus eliminating this exact scenario.
if only the quality/dimensions would come up.
it is always, more, more, more. lol
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The scenario decribed by the OP is very serious. The main target certainly would be PCGS, as they don't generally have pictures of their coins on their website. Unfortunately, the only defense against this would be only purchasing NGC holdered coins. PCGS had best hope this situation never arises. JMO
if you mean that we should hope authentic but lower grade coins end up in fake holders, that time has already arrived. havent heard about it being a major problem but i imagine it would fly under the radar for a while.
its a big country out there at times.
i do hope it doesnt proliferate/perpetuate for sure. it makes my knees knock more than most scenarios, partly because of the extra legwork required.
we have discussed these things previously and some members did offer up some great info./methods to thwart being nailed.
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Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Raise grading fees, TrueView every certified coin. It's inevitable.
Can you imagine just how many photographers would go blind trying to photograph all the ultra-modern proofs that are certified!
In my mind's eye, the one untapped potential to the counterfeiters is placing legit coinage in counterfeit slabs that are a single point off.
It truly is the tag that is scrutinized along with the coin for counterfeit detection. Perfecting the plastic shell would be the easy part (after all, where do we suppose the genuine slabs are produced?).
Here is an easy example:
1) A true MS64 1925-S Peace dollar is placed in a counterfeit slab with a bogus MS65 insert. This is a looming threat that will have consequences that are far more reaching than what we have now- fake coins in fake slabs. There are more complex scenarios, but this one is easy enough to understand for the intent of this thread.
2) I wonder too, if that "MS65" Peace dollar was then sent in for TrueView if it would be photographed (remember, it is a legit U.S. coin) and then reholdered if it would get a different insert (and thus a genuine one). When an older green insert PCGS coin is sent in for TrueView is it returned with that same, original insert of a new, blue one?
Lots of different ways a counterfeiter could go if they become even slightly more creative.
3) (Another example: Sending in that "MS65" for crossover to NGC.)
Other workarounds are available too, many undetected in the end.
Not a fleeting thought, this had been bugging me for awhile now.
#1 would be most troubling if the MS65 cert checked out (i.e., cert# and bar code were from a real graded coin).
#2 and #3 - PCGS (or NGC) should always do a cert look-up beforehand. Then again, if the cert checked out...uh oh.
These scenarios are, of course, not something the Chinese are interested in. Their business is passing off fake coins, not trying to make money by tricking TPG's. This would be the work of more crafty crooks and not as widespread. But still disturbing. (I wonder how hard it would be to buy just the slab halves from Chinese counterfeiters.)
Lance.
This kind of secret marker is called a "covert feature" in the anti-counterfeiting world. There are covert features in our currency that allow the Federal Reserve to detect even the very best counterfeits.
I just wanted to mention that during the presentation at the PCGS FUN luncheon, they mentioned that the plastic in PCGS slabs contains a chemical tag - a trace amount of an undisclosed substance present only in genuine slabs. So there is no danger of PCGS reholdering from a fake slab. Would they disclose this marker to NGC to prevent crossovers?
This kind of secret marker is called a "covert feature" in the anti-counterfeiting world. There are covert features in our currency that allow the Federal Reserve to detect even the very best counterfeits.
Good to know. Would be interesting to offer slab confirmation at shows.
I just wanted to mention that during the presentation at the PCGS FUN luncheon, they mentioned that the plastic in PCGS slabs contains a chemical tag - a trace amount of an undisclosed substance present only in genuine slabs. So there is no danger of PCGS reholdering from a fake slab. Would they disclose this marker to NGC to prevent crossovers?
This kind of secret marker is called a "covert feature" in the anti-counterfeiting world. There are covert features in our currency that allow the Federal Reserve to detect even the very best counterfeits.
Yeah, well, that covers slabs for the last 12 months, not 30 years.
Lance.