1861 Clark Gruber $20 Overstrikes and Jack Leon Klausen
Zoins
Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
The recent cool posts on Clark Gruber pieces had me do a quick search on what might be available and I ran into the following fantasy piece. Any information on who may have struck this and when?
Update: while I originally posted about this in 2015, I was able to pick it up in 2022! Patience is a virtue!
Update: while I originally posted about this in 2015, I was able to pick it up in 2022! Patience is a virtue!
3
Comments
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
All of the 1861 CG $20 "Fantasy" pieces are from the the same false dies used to strike the more commonly seen semi-PL fake non-overstrikes. And the overstrikes all seem to have provenances that originate with a California dealer, whom I believe was active from the 1950's or 60's until his death perhaps a decade ago.
Is the dealer Jack Klauson? If it is, it could be cool to add the Klauson pedigree on the insert. First time I've seen one of these pieces.
The recent cool posts on Clark Gruber pieces had me do a quick search on what might be available and I ran into the following fantasy piece. Any information on who may have struck this and when?
CoinFacts image:
When did PCGS start slabbing Fantasy coins? I have never heard of it. Does anyone know if they will do other Fantasy coins??
The recent cool posts on Clark Gruber pieces had me do a quick search on what might be available and I ran into the following fantasy piece. Any information on who may have struck this and when?
CoinFacts image:
When did PCGS start slabbing Fantasy coins? I have never heard of it. Does anyone know if they will do other Fantasy coins??
I was thinking the same thing! Why are these being slabbed?
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Since PCGS set a presedent, they should start slabbing Dan Carr's fantasy overstrike coins if they want to be at all consistent. Dan Carr's products are certainly of a much higher quality that this coin being discussed.
Until the actual legal status of those overstrikes is determined by the US Treasury and/or courts, PCGS would be wise to avoid slabbing any of them.
Since PCGS set a presedent, they should start slabbing Dan Carr's fantasy overstrike coins if they want to be at all consistent. Dan Carr's products are certainly of a much higher quality that this coin being discussed.
Until the actual legal status of those overstrikes is determined by the US Treasury and/or courts, PCGS would be wise to avoid slabbing any of them.
Totally irrelevant. Dan Carr sent letters to the appropriate government agencies telling them he was planning to make these fantasy coins and they chose to not respond. If they had a problem with these coins they would have done something about it by now. Also they would go after Dan rather than PCGS. Don't forget that PCGS has slabbed actual counterfeit US coins including several Morgan dollars with the micro-O mintmark. Also, they have slabbed the 1913 Liberty nickels which have a nebulous origin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When did PCGS start slabbing Fantasy coins? I have never heard of it. Does anyone know if they will do other Fantasy coins??
PCGS does slab other fantasy coins like the Scovill Manufacturing Fugios but those say "New Haven Res", not "Fantasy". The New Haven Restrikes are now known not to be restrikes or have anything to do with New Haven so it would be nice to change that labeling.
It should be noted that the Clark Gruber pieces have been suggested to be counterfeits as well. Here, PCGS and other TPGs will slab some but not all counterfeits, e.g. Machin's Mills Halfpennies vs. Micro-O Morgans. So this entire area has some subjectivity to it regarding what is and is not slabbed.
All of the 1861 CG $20 "Fantasy" pieces are from the the same false dies used to strike the more commonly seen semi-PL fake non-overstrikes. And the overstrikes all seem to have provenances that originate with a California dealer, whom I believe was active from the 1950's or 60's until his death perhaps a decade ago.
Ford ?
PCGS and others certified them as genuine.
But then at some point (in the late 1990s I think), by looking at auction records it was determined that the "Die 2" pieces did not exist prior to the 1960s, and that they were counterfeit.
From the PCGS guarantee web page:
Private Strikes and Restrikes currently recognized by PCGS
...
1861 Clark Gruber $20 (Transfer Dies, Struck circa 1960s) double eagle overstrike forgeries on various genuine coins from transfer dies, struck privately circa 1960s.
...
Recently, a collector loaned a full set of Clark Gruber gold to the ANA for display in the museum. The 1861 $20 in the set was PCGS certified (prior to 2000) as a genuine original, but it was actually a "Die 2" counterfeit.
The old PCGS guarantee page talked about notorious coins that PCGS has had to pay out a lot of money on their guarantee. The "Die 2" 1861 $20 Clark Gruber was listed as one of those coins.
Looks like there is another example of that one to deal with now.
Here's an E-Sylum article on when this was discovered titled DON KAGIN ON THE ORIGIN OF THE PIONEER GOLD FORUM.
Here's the first paragraph:
The Pioneer Forum originated with our suspicions two years ago of another controversial issue . the $20 1861 Clark Gruber & Co. Prooflike and counter stamped issues. These were .discovered. in the late 1950s but the origins seem to have been Jack Klauson .from an old guy in Denver., or so he told me. A few of these pieces appeared over the years in almost all the major auction houses including Kagin.s. Some of these coins were already in PCGS holders. I put the Forum together and we met at the FUN show last January. A unanimous determination was made that the coins in question were 20th century Fantasies made for collectors. (PCGS repurchased the slabbed pieces).
Whether they should be slabbed or not is debatable. My feeling is that as long as everyone knows what PCGS means by "fantasy", there's no problem slabbing them as such. But I also have to wonder what might happen if an unscrupulous dealer sells one of these coins for six or seven figures to an unknowledgeable buyer, and the courts are later asked to sort things out.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Even though these coins are fake, they're very collectable, and they have value. Same as the "New Haven" Fugios.
Whether they should be slabbed or not is debatable. My feeling is that as long as everyone knows what PCGS means by "fantasy", there's no problem slabbing them as such. But I also have to wonder what might happen if an unscrupulous dealer sells one of these coins for six or seven figures to an unknowledgeable buyer, and the courts are later asked to sort things out.
I understand what you are saying, and I realize that we have discussed on this forum many times the so-called "unknowledgeable buyer".
I agree that there could be such a thing as an unknowledgeable owner, like a person who inherits a coin and thinks (hopes) that it might be worth a lot.
But I don't think there is any such thing as an "unknowledgeable buyer" who would actually spend six or seven figures for something they are unknowledgeable about.
In other words, it is one thing to find or be given an item and then hope that it might be worth a lot of money. It is all together a different situation for a person to be actually willing to pay $100,000+ for an item unless they are intimately familiar with it.
Apparently, PCGS no longer guarantees pioneer gold coins ?
That is what I have been told by this same acquaintance, anyway.
Is there any truth to that ?
It also seems to me that if I were to have dies engraved for a Clark, Gruber & Co. $20 in nearly exact similitude of a coin that already exists, anything struck from those dies would be a "counterfeit."
TD
PCGS also slabs the Machin's Mills Halfpenny and New Haven Scovill Fugios. Is PCGS obligated to buy those back?
It seems to me that if I were to have dies engraved for an 1899 $15 coin of Emperor Norton the Third, Emperor of California and King of Lower Slobovia, anything struck from those dies would be a "fantasy" issue.
TD
Just have to say, that would be one of the coolest fantasy pieces ever. Along with Tiburcio Vasquez or Joaquin Murrieta gun money. Or an 1848 "cal" gold token made from gold dust carried by Edward Fitzgerald Beale.
Dan Carr! Dan Carr!
To me there is a big difference between this coin and the Dan Carr fantasy coins. On this coin you can clearly see both images where the Dan Carr coins are clearly made to look like a coin they are not. PCGS should never slab these.
If PCGS has a policy to slab the fantasy Clark Gruber pieces, would they be obligated to buy them back as fakes? As mentioned by Andy, these are very collectible.
PCGS also slabs the Machin's Mills Halfpenny and New Haven Scovill Fugios. Is PCGS obligated to buy those back?
I agree that the die 2 "fantasy" Clark Gruber 1861 $20 pieces are collectible, even though they were likely made in the late 1950s or early 1960s.
However, the coin loaned to the ANA was certified as a genuine original. That certification was done before the die 2 coins were deemed counterfeit.
I do not know if it is true, but I am hearing that PCGS no longer guarantees ANY pioneer gold, including those coins already in PCGS holders. I would hope that is not the case, but I really don't know.
It seems to me that if I were to have dies engraved for an 1899 $15 coin of Emperor Norton the Third, Emperor of California and King of Lower Slobovia, anything struck from those dies would be a "fantasy" issue.
TD
Just have to say, that would be one of the coolest fantasy pieces ever. Along with Tiburcio Vasquez or Joaquin Murrieta gun money. Or an 1848 "cal" gold token made from gold dust carried by Edward Fitzgerald Beale.
Dan Carr! Dan Carr!
A fun "fantasy" piece that I've thought about making is an 1858 or 1859 "COL" gold quarter eagle.
An "Emperor Norton" piece of some sort has also previously crossed my mind.
To me there is a big difference between this coin and the Dan Carr fantasy coins. On this coin you can clearly see both images where the Dan Carr coins are clearly made to look like a coin they are not. PCGS should never slab these.
On the piece pictured at the start of this thread, the under-type (Ireland token) is indeed very easy to see.
However, some time in the late 1950s or early 1960s, the same dies were utilized to strike gold blanks. For many years, up until around 2006, those gold strikes were thought to be genuine original "die 2" 1861 Clark Gruber $20 pieces. PCGS now certifies those gold strikes as "fantasy" as well, even though they closely imitate the genuine original "die 1" gold coins.
It seems to me that if I were to have dies engraved for an 1899 $15 coin of Emperor Norton the Third, Emperor of California and King of Lower Slobovia, anything struck from those dies would be a "fantasy" issue.
TD
Just have to say, that would be one of the coolest fantasy pieces ever. Along with Tiburcio Vasquez or Joaquin Murrieta gun money. Or an 1848 "cal" gold token made from gold dust carried by Edward Fitzgerald Beale.
Dan Carr! Dan Carr!
A fun "fantasy" piece that I've thought about making is an 1858 or 1859 "COL" gold quarter eagle.
An "Emperor Norton" piece of some sort has also previously crossed my mind.
If you do an "Emperor Norton" piece, put Art Carney's face on it!
If PCGS has a policy to slab the fantasy Clark Gruber pieces, would they be obligated to buy them back as fakes? As mentioned by Andy, these are very collectible.
PCGS also slabs the Machin's Mills Halfpenny and New Haven Scovill Fugios. Is PCGS obligated to buy those back?
I agree that the die 2 "fantasy" Clark Gruber 1861 $20 pieces are collectible, even though they were likely made in the late 1950s or early 1960s.
However, the coin loaned to the ANA was certified as a genuine original. That certification was done before the die 2 coins were deemed counterfeit.
I do not know if it is true, but I am hearing that PCGS no longer guarantees ANY pioneer gold, including those coins already in PCGS holders. I would hope that is not the case, but I really don't know.
While PCGS did buy back the 1861/57-S Clark Gruber $20 MS63 for $75,000, the current PCGS Guarantee page has the following which could exclude pieces attributed to Klauson, pieces where the numismatic status was changed due to research by the Society of Private and Pioneer Numismatists (SPPN). Back in 2010 PCGS switched to labelling the Type 2 pieces fantasy pieces in their registry.
Changes in a coin's numismatic status. The PCGS guarantee does not cover changes in a coin's status in the numismatic community. For example, in the 1980's, there was a variety of the 1942 Denver Walking Liberty half dollar that was considered an over-mint mark. This coin was known as a 1942-D/S. Subsequent research has revealed that the coin is actually a re-punched mint mark and it is now referred to as a 1942-D/D. The PCGS guarantee does not cover any change in value due to a change in a coin's status. The following is a list of some (but not all) of the coins that are currently subject to research and would not be covered by the PCGS guarantee if their status was changed:
[...]
1849 J.H. Bowie and (1849) Miner's Bank $10 with crimp edge Territorial gold coins. The current view is that these issues are genuine California Territorial issues. It is possible that research will show they were made at a later date.
Territorial patterns and bars. This is a very esoteric area and subject to continuous research and some controversy. PCGS does not guarantee the status or authenticity of Territorial patterns and bars. We will grade them however, and do our best to authenticate them, but we do not guarantee their authenticity. You buy Territorial patterns and bars at your risk.
If PCGS has a policy to slab the fantasy Clark Gruber pieces, would they be obligated to buy them back as fakes? As mentioned by Andy, these are very collectible.
PCGS also slabs the Machin's Mills Halfpenny and New Haven Scovill Fugios. Is PCGS obligated to buy those back?
I agree that the die 2 "fantasy" Clark Gruber 1861 $20 pieces are collectible, even though they were likely made in the late 1950s or early 1960s.
However, the coin loaned to the ANA was certified as a genuine original. That certification was done before the die 2 coins were deemed counterfeit.
I do not know if it is true, but I am hearing that PCGS no longer guarantees ANY pioneer gold, including those coins already in PCGS holders. I would hope that is not the case, but I really don't know.
While PCGS did buy back the 1861/57-S Clark Gruber $20 MS63 for $75,000, the current PCGS Guarantee page has the following which could exclude pieces attributed to Klauson, pieces where the numismatic status was changed due to research by the Society of Private and Pioneer Numismatists (SPPN). Back in 2010 PCGS switched to labelling the Type 2 pieces fantasy pieces in their registry.
Changes in a coin's numismatic status. The PCGS guarantee does not cover changes in a coin's status in the numismatic community. For example, in the 1980's, there was a variety of the 1942 Denver Walking Liberty half dollar that was considered an over-mint mark. This coin was known as a 1942-D/S. Subsequent research has revealed that the coin is actually a re-punched mint mark and it is now referred to as a 1942-D/D. The PCGS guarantee does not cover any change in value due to a change in a coin's status. The following is a list of some (but not all) of the coins that are currently subject to research and would not be covered by the PCGS guarantee if their status was changed:
[...]
1849 J.H. Bowie and (1849) Miner's Bank $10 with crimp edge Territorial gold coins. The current view is that these issues are genuine California Territorial issues. It is possible that research will show they were made at a later date.
Territorial patterns and bars. This is a very esoteric area and subject to continuous research and some controversy. PCGS does not guarantee the status or authenticity of Territorial patterns and bars. We will grade them however, and do our best to authenticate them, but we do not guarantee their authenticity. You buy Territorial patterns and bars at your risk.
Thanks, that makes more sense of it.
Here's some more info. The OP in this thread is from 2015 when these were indicated as fantasy dies. The 2013 and 2002 articles below indicated these were legit test strike pieces. When was it established these were fantasy pieces?
Heritage associates this piece with some other overstrikes, including the following in this 2022 lot description.
Ref: https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/territorial-and-fractional-gold/1861-20-clark-gruber-twenty-dollar-overstruck-on-an-irish-30-pence-token-ms62-pcgs/a/1341-4261.s
Back in 2013, CoinWeek quoted Don Kagin as saying the double eagles, eagle and Assay piece were struck by Clark Gruber:
Ref: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/us-gold-coins/unusual-items-bizarre-territorial-gold-coin-overstrike/
This is basically the same info from 2002:
Ref: https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/territorial-and-fractional-gold/1861-20-clark-gruber-and-co-twenty-dollar-k-8-struck-over-an-1853-us-assay-office-twenty-dollar-k-19-ms62-pcgs-new/a/300-9008.s
Here's some info on Jack Leon Klausen:
Ref: https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v10n22a05.html
Combining the two lists from the Heritage lot descriptions in 2002 and 2022 we end up with the following. It seems that perhaps some of the dates were reported in error as we end up with many more pieces if we take them at face value.
Here's the piece struck on an 1853 Assay double eagle which sold for $66,125.00 back in 2002!
So far, I've only found photos of the Irish bank token in the OP and this Assay double eagle. Without seeing the others, I do think these two are probably the most striking in design.
Do photos of the others exist?
The history of these is very interesting going from Bailey & Company to Clark Gruber to Jack Leon Klausen. Of note, this slab doesn't say "Fantasy" on it like the Irish Bank Token but appear to be some the same group.
Here's a biography of Jack Leon Klausen from the sale of his collection by Heritage. The following is just a short excerpt so click through for more
Does anyone have a photo of Jack?
https://coins.ha.com/heritage-auctions-press-releases-and-news/spectacular-territorial-gold-coins-from-jack-klausen-s-estate-to-anchor-heritage-s-long-beach-auction.s?releaseId=235
Here's the one struck over an 1850 $10 gold eagle!
This was sold by Heritage in 2010 and then Stack's Bowers in 2011. The interesting thing is that the Heritage lot that the article references, Lot 2388 is no longer active. Luckily the 2011 Stack's lot is active, though it does not include PCGS slab photos. The PCGS Pop Report shows 2 in MS63, though one has to wonder if these are the same specimen.
Neither the 2013 CoinWeek article nor the 2011 Stack's Bowers lot description attribute this to Jack Leon Klausen.
So the census with photos is now:
I finally got around to looking up the silver 1808 Irish Bank Token that the OP coin was struck on.
Here they are to compare:
Here's an article. Looks like these were the subject of discussion for some time!
https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v11n31a15.html
And more from George Fuld in a Google group. Is this Google group still running?
It looks like George concluded they weren't done by Paul Franklin's Massapequa Mint.
i know i'm kinda focused on the unimportant part but that obv gold one is probably the best example of what looks like mechanical doubling BUT is in fact, actually double struck (at least) confirmed by the 2 eyes from the overstruck die. - the spread of the gold piece double striking matches in degrees of rotation between obv/rev, so that is pretty straight-forward.
the silver piece isn't as simple. the reverse has a MUCH smaller spread, actually looking like a ddr while the obverse doesn't as easily appear to have been double struck.
there is something a bit inconsistent and the stars in the oval pattern are what is giving it away. they aren't matching the spread on the gold as the rest of the double striking spread. (obviously) and the same amount of spread is noted on the silver reverse, which kinda confirms the same die was used but still makes me wonder if it was a ddr AND then double struck.
it may all be moot and needles but i like to keep my mind working (numismatically) with exercises like these. (edited to add: i am not challenging the authenticity or legitimacy, this is PURELY a numismatic exercise)
disclosure, i haven't read the thread so i could be duplicating efforts.
@Zoins - if you were to upload images of what the dies originally struck, i certainly wouldn't stop ya.
ok, gotta let me brain cool off from this one. (not sure this was the day to try to tackle this one)
Nice observations!
The Irish bank token is already here in this post (deep link):
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13304983/#Comment_13304983
Haha, but super interesting!
Here's the two TrueViews for the 1853 900 fine Assay Double Eagle.
i mean a clark gruber piece these over-struck dies originally struck. i'm curious if any of them are known for a ddr. it would quickly and easily explain the discrepancy with the reverse spread.
thanks
Ah! TrueViews of those coins have been notoriously difficult for me to find, but perhaps others are available.
.
no probs. i will do the legwork then. i just figured since you did all of this, the odds of you finding them quicker would be higher BUT i was only asking on the off-chance that was the case, otherwise i'll track em down.
.
would you say the $20 at the bottom of the list is the one?
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/territorial/colorado-gold/clark-gruber-co/1743
Yes, that would work. I was thinking of getting a photo of the "Type 2" fantasy 1861 Clark Gruber Double Eagles, but since they are made from a Type 1 coin, using a Type 1 photo should be fine as well.
i kinda got caught up in the technical stuff and forgot to say:
NICE NEWP!