Dickeson Continental Dollars

Zoins

How rare or common are Continental Dollars replicas by Montroville Wilson Dickeson? I run across Bashlow restrikes all the time but not the originals.

It's interesting that these were restruck by so many people including Thomas Elder and Q. David Bowers

jonathanb

For the silver version, Tom DeLorey reports a mintage of 50 for the Dickeson version versus 2,000 for the Bashlow. Assuming that about half of each mintage survives, that's R-7 versus R-3 in practical terms.

I expect that the other compositions have similar relative rarities.

Pioneer

Rare and very expensive if you ask me. I know very few advanced SCD collectors who have a large number of these.

Here is a photo of a nice one, but it costs above $600...


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THOMAS655

Above are pictures of my HK-853 graded MS 63 by NGC. There are only a total of 15 of this type listed in the NGC census to date.

Broadstruck

NGC has attributed quite a few Bashlows as earlier Dickesons.

So you need to be smarter than a Third Party Grader when shopping for one in plastic.

jonathanb

The one pictured by THOMAS655 is indeed an 1876 strike.

I've also seen multiple examples in slabs that were wrong in both direction (1961 strikes slabbed as 1876, and 1876 strikes slabbed as 1961 -- as a buyer I'm very happy to find errors in the second direction!)

NumisOxide

Isn't there also Bowers/Empire Coin Company restrikes of the 1960s?

Zoins

@THOMAS655 Awesome original by Montroville Dickeson. Yours looks really nice!

Zoins

Robert Jesinger put together this great comparison photo to compare the Dickeson and Bashlow strikes. I'd love to buy a Dickeson for a Bashlow price!

http://www.so-calleddollar.com/discussions/topic/continental-dollar-restrikes-hk-852-to-hk-862/

RogerB

Although often called "restrikes," these are copies or imitations. Original dies were not involved.

CaptHenway

@Zoins said:
Robert Jesinger put together this great comparison photo to compare the Dickeson and Bashlow strikes. I'd love to buy a Dickeson for a Bashlow price!

http://www.so-calleddollar.com/discussions/topic/continental-dollar-restrikes-hk-852-to-hk-862/

Excellent pictures, and very useful, but I would like to point out for the record that the text shown is lifted directly from my Elder Catalogue.
TD

keets

Although often called "restrikes," these are copies or imitations. Original dies were not involved.

actually, aren't they restrikes of a copy of the Continental Dollar??

THOMAS655

ATTACHED ARE PICTURES OF MY NEWLY ACQUIRED HK-852 DICKESON SILVER CONTINENTAL DOLLAR 1876 RESTRIKE GRADED MS 63 PL. THERE ARE ONLY (3) OF THIS TYPE LISTED IN THE NGC CENSUS, (1) MS 61, THIS MS 63 PL, AND (1) MS 64. THERE IS ALSO ONE OTHER I KNOW ABOUT, IT IS A MS 61 BROADSTRUCK ERROR GRADED BY NGC. THIS ONE IS NOT LISTED IN NGC'S CENSUS.

THE MS 61 EXAMPLE WAS SOLD BY HERITAGE AUCTIONS IN AUGUST 2019 FOR $3,840.00.

THERE WERE ONLY (50) STRUCK IN SILVER IN 1876 ACCORDING TO JOHN W. HASELTINE.

One of four 1776 Continental Currency dollars struck in silver realized $1.41 million in Heritage Auctions’ sale in New York City of Part IV of the Eric P. Newman Collection.

CaptHenway

@THOMAS655 said:
ATTACHED ARE PICTURES OF MY NEWLY ACQUIRED HK-852 DICKESON SILVER CONTINENTAL DOLLAR 1876 RESTRIKE GRADED MS 63 PL. THERE ARE ONLY (3) OF THIS TYPE LISTED IN THE NGC CENSUS, (1) MS 61, THIS MS 63 PL, AND (1) MS 64. THERE IS ALSO ONE OTHER I KNOW ABOUT, IT IS A MS 61 BROADSTRUCK ERROR GRADED BY NGC. THIS ONE IS NOT LISTED IN NGC'S CENSUS.

THE MS 61 EXAMPLE WAS SOLD BY HERITAGE AUCTIONS IN AUGUST 2019 FOR $3,840.00.

THERE WERE ONLY (50) STRUCK IN SILVER IN 1876 ACCORDING TO JOHN W. HASELTINE.

One of four 1776 Continental Currency dollars struck in silver realized $1.41 million in Heritage Auctions’ sale in New York City of Part IV of the Eric P. Newman Collection.

Hmmmmmm........

CaptHenway

Perhaps it is just the photography, but look at the upper ends of the three sun rays to the right of the sunface’s cheek compared to the same area on the bronze one above.

CaptHenway

Here's a better image of a bronze Dickeson strike:

http://www.dmrarecoins.com/Dickeson-Continental-Currency-Dollars.php

The tops of the sun rays do seem to match this silver piece. I don't know why they look longer on the bronze strike shown above. As I said, it may have just been the photography.

Zoins

@Pioneer said:
Rare and very expensive if you ask me. I know very few advanced SCD collectors who have a large number of these.

Here is a photo of a nice one, but it costs above $600...

How large is large @Pioneer1

Zoins

@Zoins said:
Robert Jesinger put together this great comparison photo to compare the Dickeson and Bashlow strikes. I'd love to buy a Dickeson for a Bashlow price!

http://www.so-calleddollar.com/discussions/topic/continental-dollar-restrikes-hk-852-to-hk-862/

Here's one that just sold which shows a strong table:

Bsktmkr

My slabbed white metal version. Lighting is difficult in slabs. I suspect the silver piece is genuine based on the photos. These were struck at different times so differences due to die wear and strike is to be expected. I have three white metal pieces, two are medal turn and one is coin turn. At the time, it took multiple strikes to fully strike up the details with the pieces being annealed between strikes. These were not mass produced owing to the labor to strike them circa 1861 (as opposed to the general belief they were struck in 1876).

CaptHenway

I like that piece!

Pioneer1

@Zoins said:

@Pioneer said:
Rare and very expensive if you ask me. I know very few advanced SCD collectors who have a large number of these.

Here is a photo of a nice one, but it costs above $600...

How large is large @Pioneer1

Six

Pioneer1

There is a very good article that was supposed to be published on these... the ANA Numismatist has it but failed to publish it when the editors changed; it's back in review... let's hope it gets published soon.

For what it is worth, there are 3-5 collectors I know who have a decent (three-nine) number of these... awaiting the article release. Hang on to the Elder and Dickeson strikes... you will see what I mean when the Numismatist gets the article out....

jonathanb

Which pieces are we talking about? I count 71 Dickeson and Dickeson/Elder So-Called Dollars. That includes:

• HK-435 through HK-448b
• HK-852 through HK-866c (excluding the 1960-era restrikes)
• HK-877 through HK-891c

I figure 10 of them as R-5 and R-6, which should all be obtainable without a lot of stress. They get a lot tougher, of course...

Zoins

Interesting info @Pioneer1 and @jonathanb.

Can't wait to see the article and learn more about the mintages.

Do we know how the original die sinker was on these? Dickeson was a medical doctor and archaeologist so I'm not sure he would have have time to become a die sinker as well. He sold coin safes so presumably he would know people in the industry:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1030245/montroville-wilson-dickeson

Zoins

Here's a restrike done by Q. David Bowers for comparison.

Photos are by Brian Hodge of Minshull Trading:

https://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=47498235

Pioneer1

The October 2021 Numismatist just released ... ** FINALLY ** ... has the great article on the Dickeson SCDs by Bill Hyder and Jeff Shevlin .... the article is currently online in the digital edition of the Numismatist at money.org

The originals of these (along with pieces in the HK-863 and HK-866c) were made sometime between 1859 and 1868 by Robert Lovett Jr ... for Dickeson !

Zoins

Very nice! I wish they would post here but it's great they are publishing these articles!

It is curious that it's published by the ANA, vs. TAMS. I wonder if TAMS will publish it as well?

tokenpro

@Zoins said:
Very nice! I wish they would post here but it's great they are publishing these articles!

It is curious that it's published by the ANA, vs. TAMS. I wonder if TAMS will publish it as well?

Doubtful. TAMS aims to publish original work but will run articles done elsewhere (with permission) when the articles are found in works not easily accessible to TAMS members. No reflection on this work by friends Bill & Jeff but the TAMS Siegel Literary Award is no longer a 6(?) troy ounce hunk of gold so some articles that would seem natural for TAMS have headed for other venues.

tokenpro

@Zoins said:
Very nice! I wish they would post here but it's great they are publishing these articles!

It is curious that it's published by the ANA, vs. TAMS. I wonder if TAMS will publish it as well?

Doubtful. TAMS aims to publish original work but will run articles done elsewhere (with permission) when the articles are found in works not easily accessible to TAMS members. No reflection on this work by friends Bill & Jeff but the TAMS Siegel Literary Award is no longer a 6(?) troy ounce hunk of gold so some articles that would seem natural for TAMS have headed for other venues.

coinsarefun

Reading this prompted me to read the online article which was pretty good. As a side note the Dickeson's Coin & Medal Safe pictured so happens to be mine. And the 1792 Trial Cent* I have an Electrotype it accompanied with the paper envelope.
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Meltdown

Interesting thread. I've learned a thing or two... just for fun, here's my re-strike.
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Pioneer1

Here are a few referenced in the article:

NumisOxide

@Meltdown said:
Interesting thread. I've learned a thing or two... just for fun, here's my re-strike.
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Never seen the original envelope. Cool!

keets

an HK-866b, interesting. this means there are at least two of them, a low number which explains why I can't find one!!

to the recent article dating Dickeson issues to the mid-1800's, I had uncovered this very fact during a search several years ago, I can't remember who the page was linked to, maybe Steve Hayden. it's in the archived threads here and I think the Good Captain was trying to track down additional information about the auction catalogue. if I can find it, or he can, I'll try to link that old thread.

keets

OK, that went faster than I expected!!!

I had saved the thread in my favorites, it's linked below, and I've also posted a few images of the catalogue pages for anyone who doesn't want to follow the link and may have missed the thread the first time around.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12022599#Comment_12022599

the page links to JK Americana/John Kraljevich and as seen in the first image the auction was held on "Tuesday and Wednesday, Sept. 22 and 23 1863" at five o'clock PM. the relevant lots are 943-947.

it's interesting(to me, at least) that lot 946 translates to HK-866b and may in fact be the medal listed above by Pioneer1!! how cool is that??