Why is this obsolete rag special?

Berny

Here is a rag from the Franklin County Bank of Malone, NY, that I obtained recently. What is special about it?

sellitstore

I answered this question for myself a couple of months ago when I first saw it on Ebay, so I'll let others respond, for now.

Tookybandit

I think it was altered and was originally from a different bank.

Berny

Originally posted by: Tookybandit

I think it was altered and was originally from a different bank.

Well, this would apply to 1000's of obsolete notes. If so, from which bank was it altered.

Tookybandit

Originally posted by: Berny

Originally posted by: Tookybandit

I think it was altered and was originally from a different bank.

Well, this would apply to 1000's of obsolete notes. If so, from which bank was it altered.

I can't help there I just noticed "State of" and "Franklin County" are much bolder than the ink on the rest of the note. I purchased a couple of altered obsoletes recently with similar characteristics.

TigerTrader

I cant figure it out after a bit of detective work... The central vignette looks like Lady floating in clouds with Eagle, that I have seen used on many notes but I couldn't find a match.

sellitstore

Hint: For similar vignettes look for notes by Durand & Co.

Tookybandit

Originally posted by: sellitstore

Hint: For similar vignettes look for notes by Durand & Co.

I found this sexy thing that sold for bookoos of bucks on Heritage.









Now it looks like the OP note is possibly counterfeit. The vignette lacks the detail of this beautiful proof.

sellitstore

Now it looks like the OP note is possibly counterfeit. The vignette lacks the detail of this beautiful proof.


You are on the right track but not quite there yet.


Someone should post page 1582 from the Haxby catalog, so we all can play on a level field.

Berny

Is it supposed to be fair?

OK, here is page 1582 from Haxby.

MAM0912

All I can determine from Haxby is that the note was designed in a style similar to the $1 & $2 Franklin County Bank notes

and that Haxby didn't report any $3 bills for the bank or counterfeits except for raised $5s, $10s & $20s from $1s & $2s.

sellitstore

All true, so what does that make this one?

element159

So it is a spurious note, and denomination. It seems strange, if you are making a fake note, to pick an unusual denomination.

sellitstore

That's pretty much what I came up with.


It's an unlisted spurious note. The bank printed no $3 notes.


Vignettes are imitations of actual Durand & Co. vignettes, used late 1830s-early1840s. RW&H printed the genuine notes for this bank somewhat later in 1846. This spurious note is plausibly dated 1848 but the vignettes are wrong for the late 1840s.


The note was likely printed from a modified fraudulent plate as it looks like the state was modified as well as the denomination from $5 to $3. Perhaps Berny has located other $3 or $5 spurious notes printed from the same plate? I'll bet that they are out there, if anyone cares to look.

Is there an imprint at lower right edge, below Pres. signature? RW&H?

DanCong

Originally posted by: element159
So it is a spurious note, and denomination. It seems strange, if you are making a fake note, to pick an unusual denomination.

Then there are no genuine notes to compare with ?

sellitstore

There are genuine $1, $2, $5 and $10 proofs from the bank.




This $3 design doesn't resemble anything that the bank actually issued. If the bank had issued a $3 of this design, then this would be a counterfeit. Since the bank never issued this design (or denomination), we define this as a spurious note.




Spurious plates were often altered to another bank and location when their impressions became known and reported in the counterfeit detectors. That's why I suspect that a search of other spurious $3 and $5 issues may reveal this exact plate with a different bank name, location and possibly even denomination. I think that this plate was altered from a $5 plate and that's why the "3" counters look strange. I have seen this before on other spurious notes.

uzuiwek

It's worth adding, 1-2-5-10 was a very popular sheet arrangement at the time. The fact that Haxby has a proof listed for each of those, and no other genuine denominations, seems pretty convincing to me that no other denominations were issued.




For the record, I've seen other examples of spurious notes on a bank that did not issue the denomination in question. Seemed to happen a fair amount for higher denominations ($20s come to mind, but the State Bank of Ohio $100 example is another), but I've got a $2 or two that fit the bill as well.

Berny

Here is an image from Thompson's 1849 Counterfeit Detector.



Notice that Haxby missed the $3 spurious note but has an additional $10 raised from the $2 note.



By the way, many of the Counterfeit Detectors are now online and more will probably be coming through the Newman portal.



So Russell do you know of another copy of this $3 spurious unlisted note?

Berny

Here is an image of the $2 proof. There were no proofs in the 1990 Christie's auction. This proof is probably unique coming from the $1-2-5-10 sheet listed in the 1988 Haxby book.



I cannot find an imprint on the $3 note. I have also been searching for the possible related Durand notes and have not been able to find it. Almost all of the Durand notes are listed as SENC in Haxby.

Berny

A $3 genuine Durand note from the Delaware Bridge Company with the same vignette as the OP.

NorthTrek

Originally posted by: Berny

By the way, many of the Counterfeit Detectors are now online and more will probably be coming through the Newman portal.

Bernie, can you provide a link to the online CDs?

Berny

Originally posted by: NorthTrek

Originally posted by: Berny



By the way, many of the Counterfeit Detectors are now online and more will probably be coming through the Newman portal.

Bernie, can you provide a link to the online CDs?

Try archive.org and search for "Thompson's Bank Note Reporter."



They also have the signature detectors. Search for "autographical counterfeit detector."



And the Heath's detectors.



The nice thing about the archive.org site is that the downloaded pdf files are still searchable unlike the Google downloaded pdf files.



Edited to add: Of course Dillistin's book on " Bank Note Reporters and Counterfeit Detectors" might help in your searches.

sellitstore

Although Haxby searched many period counterfeit detectors for listings, he clearly didn't search all of them.




Counterfeit detectors became steadily more popular and numerous during the 1800s, so the earlier counterfeits are not as well documented as later ones.

Tookybandit

Great thread! My interest in obsoletes has grown a ton this past year thanks to the forum.

MAM0912

I have a copy of Dillistin's Monograph and found this image of a Spurious $50 note with the Durand & Co. imprint.

sellitstore

This note shows a different spurious version of the same America and eagle vignette and is in the Durand style but not up to the quality of engraving of a genuine Durand note. The year is the same as the $3 spurious in the O/P, 1848, a bit too late for Durand & Co. notes.

sellitstore

Here's a couple of genuine plate Durand sheets. They are modern proprietary impressions but possibly the only ones extant.

Berny

Russell, those are some very nice unlisted notes from Buffalo. The only ones that I have seen before are the bottom two PP's from the Erie County Bank that sold at Smythe in 2006 from the Schingoethe collection.



Here is a check from the same bank that has the same vignette as in the OP.

element159

Interesting spurious note.

Tookybandit

Cool thread!