When did they decide notes don't have to breath?

agentjim007

Someone will correct me if my failing memory fails me but I seem to remember when the first company decided to slab paper money ( believe it was Hallmark) that the slab had to be designed with breathing vents. I recently bought a PCGS note, no vents. It has been a long time since I played with paper money (15 years or longer) but the holders back then had little slots to let air in. Now that I think about it a little longer it's probably 20 years since I bought paper money.

NiceCurrency

PMG seals them, PCGS vents them

sealed paper money will eventually become brittle and disintergrate

agentjim007

My PGCS is sealed.

NiceCurrency

I'd like to see it

agentjim007

I just went on pcgs currency.com and they say the holders are open across the top, I don't see it with a 10X scope but if they say it's open I'll have to believe them.

synchr

Originally posted by: agentjim007
My PGCS is sealed.

Old style with label on the side perhaps?

Or do these still breath too?
Click here to see PCGS side tab old style holder

amrys

Interesting question!
What is better?
Completely sealed or a little open for "breathing"?

I don't know. What would you prefer and why?

delistamps

I own both and don't know enough about the science and risks to be willing to cross all notes from PMG to PCGS or vice versa. If sealing clearly causes damage, how long is the process? What risks are associated with open slabs in humid environments or in case of spills, fires, floods, etc.? I tend to think if this is so clear cut a basic difference in approaches between the top two TPGs would result in a significant shift of customers.

agentjim007

Hallmark were the first and they said notes need to breath and they spent much time to design the proper holder. I would like to buy a note in a hallmark holder but there can't be many out there. It shouldn't take that much science to know if cloth ( paper money is not paper) deteriorates in a sealed holder. I would imagine the process would take longer than our lifetime but it would bother me if I thought my paper money is in an unsafe environment. I am not only going to limit my purchases to Q's but also PCGS since they claim their holders are vented even though I can't see them.

Dennis88

Here's the PCGS holder as pictured from their website:







Near the top, on both sides next to the label, is a small opening that allows air/fluids to come into the holder.



As for the PMG holder, I recently had a discussion with somebody about this topic. He said that he talked to a archivist at the National Archives who said that if paper of any kind (including paper money, which is often cotton-based) does not get aired "regularly" (as in once every couple of decades) that in 200 years or so the paper will become brittle and the object will crumble to dust once exposed to air. As a result of this I submerged a PMG holder (latest style) in water for about 5 minutes. When I cut the note out of the holder after that there were no signs of the note ever having been in touch with water, which makes me believe that the PMG holders are waterproof to a certain extent (I do not know if they remain that way if they are submerged in water for a week).



There are breathable but waterproof plastics out on the market, and I sincerely hope this is what PMG holders use, but their website gives no information as to the source of plastic used. Anybody know?



Dennis

NiceCurrency

I believe all companies other than PCGS-C that currently slab paper money seal them completely, whether or not there is some small vent included in the holder beyond that is not something I'm aware of

gsalex

Seems like the best test of "breathability" would be to submerge a holder in very hot water. This would cause any air inside to expand and push its way out in the form of bubbles at the vent points. If it's sealed completely the holder would just expand slightly like a balloon.

I would only recommend this test for a note you don't mind ruining.

delistamps

Sorry but it's bugging me...

Breath or breathe?

agentjim007

You must be a teacher. My wife is and she gets on me all the time for my incorrect spelling.

delistamps

Close. I work for a union with more than 70,000 members...most of them teachers!

Steve_in_Tampa

I found a previous thread

in which this subject was discussed. The thread originally started out as a question concerning grading, but by page 2 or 3 the discussion had evolved into sealed or non-sealed holders.

DanCong

Another point is materials can be permeable, meaning even though they are "sealed" water (or other liquids) or gases can pass through. things can "outgas" but not allow gas in, etc. Unless the container has depth, vacuum could "crush" the note. I'd like a "completely" sealed holder, if that was truly archival, but I doubt that is practical. Things like UV are probably worse for a note in the short time then lack of the ability to breathe

amrys

Originally posted by: agentjim007
You must be a teacher. My wife is and she gets on me all the time for my incorrect spelling.

Teachers are ok, we need them, but our children might think different...

But I feel sorry for the children whose parents are teachers. They have no chance, they will ALWAYS be corrected, regardless how old they are and what they will say...

mfontes

Both old and new style PCGS holders have an opening on the top between the label and the end of the holder. I am not sure much air circulates around a note in any holder unless it is manipulated or opened. Most collectors store their notes and don't handle them all day long or every day. The chances of air squeezing into a stored holder is slim. My question about the statement that notes need air or they become brittle is where is the proof? Its strange how all the notes we collect today have been around for a long time and many are in excellent condition, and these notes were not sealed in a holder (the TPG holders we have today).



We all know that PVC holders will destroy currency, but I think in our life time PMG and PCGS holders will protect the notes just fine. It may take decades to determine if these holder destroy the notes and when that time comes they will be cut out and placed in whatever material is deemed to be safe. I wouldn't worry about it now

agentjim007

You're right, notes have been around a long time even before plastic was invented. They lasted just fine but we're not placed in a sealed air tight holder. I didn't make this up. Others who are considered experts said notes need to breathE. Even if it does take 200 years to destroy a note in a sealed holder that is unacceptable. I thought about your point before you even mentioned it regarding how much air can get into a PCGS vented holder when the alleged vents are so small I can't see them with a 10X glass and the heavy plastic it so flat is it really vented? I have a CGA note that has a perforated seal along the sides leaving tiny spaces between the sealed area and along the bottom they had flattened 3 spots keeping the holder from pressing completely flat against the note. If these notes really do need to breathe this design seems brilliant to me. I have noticed that CGA notes are sealed solid in some pictures, I don't know what to think about that. You don't need sealed holders to protect your currency from the environment. You use due diligence and protect them yourself from a poor environment. Some have lasted over 100 years or longer ( colonials ) and are just fine. I think I like those CGA holders best with the perforated sides and flattened bottom until I am told currency does not need to breathe. That's just me and I am probably wrong more times than right.

DanCong

amrys

I remember that someone (I don't know who) has told me that the PCGS holder would be even prevent water from the note inside ALTHOUGH the holder is open on top!

He has explained that even when the holder is open there on top the space is so small and the material (front and back of the holder) is so close together that water can't really get inside - at least for a SHORT time (what if the note is for a LONGER time under water?...).

But if that is true and the holder is even with an opening relatively closed how should then air get inside or even more how should be there a circulation?

I just realize that one advantage (sealed = waterproof) could be a at the same time a disadvantage (sealed = airtight) too...

DanCong

"Mills of the Gods, Grind exceedingly slow, But grind exceedingly fine"

Nature likes equilibrium. Over time, the inside shall be as the outside. A paper towel dropped on a puddle will remain dry for a while as well. But capillary action can pull the water in. I am sure the slab will protect against limited engagement with liquid, but not for a long time submerged.