How can older Topps X out/black mark boxes be FASC?
jsanz
Posts: 250 ✭✭
Here is my understanding of this. Lets say back in the 80's Topps sells cases to distributor, distributor sells cases or boxes to stores. At what point does the return back to Topps take place? I assume the distributors had to return full cases back to Topps and then Topps opens the cases, X or black marks them, reseals the cases, then sells to a closeout guy (Steve Myland?). Did stores or dealers return boxes or cases to the distributor or direct to Topps? My point here is these cases were opened at some point in the process because of the X or black mark so how can they still be considered From A Sealed Case FASC? If only sealed cases were accepted for return and only Topps opened them to X out black mark it then I guess they were never touched by people who could tamper with them. I understand those products were probably slow sellers if they were returned so they had little or no value at the time. I'm just curious if any one knows more about this.
Love those 70's - early 80's packs and boxes...send me a message if you are selling because I am buying
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Comments
James
Sometimes the retail stores would send unopened cases back to Topps. Topps would open the cases, put the X on them and reseal the cases.
James
i understand unopened wasn't nearly as big back then as it is now but what was the point of Topps opening the case to begin with? Marking the boxes means they werent sold from original case?
Sometimes the retail stores would send unopened cases back to Topps. Topps would open the cases, put the X on them and reseal the cases.
James
i understand unopened wasn't nearly as big back then as it is now but what was the point of Topps opening the case to begin with? Marking the boxes means they werent sold from original case?
They were marked by Topps to prevent returns from retailers.
IMHO, an x out box should not bear the FASC designation, which should be reserved for boxes coming out of sealed cased that were never opened from the day they left the factory.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
James
Edit to add:
I agree with Tim. Xed out boxes shouldn't be marked FASC. There is no way to know if the box contains the packs it originally left the factory with or packs from several boxes.
When the cases were returned the retailers were refunded what they originally paid for the product. They marked the boxes and resold them at a discount to retailers. The reason for marking the boxes was so the retailers couldn't return the boxes that they bought at a discount and get refunded full price. At least that is what I understand happened.
James
Edit to add:
I agree with Tim. Xed out boxes shouldn't be marked FASC. There is no way to know if the box contains the packs it originally left the factory with or packs from several boxes.
Actually Topps paid the retailer a percentage of what was originally paid for the product.
My uncle had a stationery/card store on Queens Blvd in NYC and most if my card collection from my youth came from that store when he gave me the unsold product because Topps was paying only pennies on the dollar for returns. This was in the late 1960s through the mid 1970s.
I cannot comment about any changes that may have occurred starting in the late 70s, but prior to that I know with certainty that they did not pay much for returns.
And the evidence that supports this further is that I don't think I can recall seeing X-ed out boxes any earlier than about 1976 or 1977. Not to say that it does not exist, but has anyone seen such boxes?
Unless some retailer really over-ordered (e.g. Someone like Fritsch who we know did not return stuff) I would think that many were like my uncle who felt it was not worth the effort to get so little back.
Dave
When the cases were returned the retailers were refunded what they originally paid for the product. They marked the boxes and resold them at a discount to retailers. The reason for marking the boxes was so the retailers couldn't return the boxes that they bought at a discount and get refunded full price. At least that is what I understand happened.
James
Edit to add:
I agree with Tim. Xed out boxes shouldn't be marked FASC. There is no way to know if the box contains the packs it originally left the factory with or packs from several boxes.
Actually Topps paid the retailer a percentage of what was originally paid for the product.
My uncle had a stationery/card store on Queens Blvd in NYC and most if my card collection from my youth came from that store when he gave me the unsold product because Topps was paying only pennies on the dollar for returns. This was in the late 1960s through the mid 1970s.
I cannot comment about any changes that may have occurred starting in the late 70s, but prior to that I know with certainty that they did not pay much for returns.
And the evidence that supports this further is that I don't think I can recall seeing X-ed out boxes any earlier than about 1976 or 1977. Not to say that it does not exist, but has anyone seen such boxes?
Unless some retailer really over-ordered (e.g. Someone like Fritsch who we know did not return stuff) I would think that many were like my uncle who felt it was not worth the effort to get so little back.
I believe the black X-outs started to occur in the early 80s when distributor's integrity with the credits became evident to Topps. Fritsch was one of a select few in the country (along with Myland and an individual in RI) that bought trainloads of closeout product at the end of each year. Not all of Larry's inventory was bought right off the presses. In addition, I've had luck opening closeout boxes, especially the '88 Topps football. Sometimes Frankenstein boxes work to your advantage.
IMHO, an x out box should not bear the FASC designation, which should be reserved for boxes coming out of sealed cased that were never opened from the day they left the factory.
Can you tell before the case is opened if they'll be X-outs or not?
I believe the outside of closeout cases are rubber-stamped stating final sale.
That is correct.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So bounce, do you know for sure you had a X out black mark box and it was a mixed pack box? That was one of my original questions.
The FASC X outs I have, have the thick painted line. I'm by no means anywhere close to sure, but I think the thick ones were cases, popped by Topps, markered, recased and sold. But the only ones that can be wrapped FASC have to be popped by BBCE. The other types I think were partial boxes or cases, which got a very generic X.
I have no particular knowledge on this, other than participating in a case break in which all the boxes came from a sealed case, and bore the thick black line...yet the case had no reference to it.
That being said, how many unopened cases might reveal similar markings. Don't know til popped. Hmmm.
James
Who first coined the phrase "FASC"? If it was Steve, then I guess he gets to define it.
Bingo!
Who first coined the phrase "FASC"? If it was Steve, then I guess he gets to define it.
Bingo!
I don't think it was Steve, likely GAI. However, I do wish Steve would clarify his interpretation somewhere on the BBCE site.
JFK...is it a thin line AND marked FASC? If so, my theory is shot. Thanks.
It is not marked FASC. I was just telling about the black line to show that there are other types of marks other than the wide black stripes and the actual X. And when I say thin, it is not a 1/16" thin line but a much thinner line than the normal wide black mark.
James