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Pogue III EAC
rays
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I received the Pogue part III catalog from Stack's-Bowers today. Some finest known early American copper.
A couple of interesting things:
1. Now I finally know what happened to the Eliasberg 1796 no pole half cent (it seemed to disappear after the Eliasberg sale in 1996).
2. The early copper is few in number but amazing in quality. Who has ever seen a RB chain?
3. The auction estimates are a little light. Examples:
Lot 3008 1796 half cent, no pole PCGS MS67RB estimate: $750,000-1,200,000. My estimate at least $2,000,000.
Lot 3012 1793 cent, S-1, "Ameri." PCGS MS61 BN estimate: $250,000-300,000. My estimate: $600,000.
Lot 3013 1793 cent, chain S-3 PCGS MS-65RB estimate: $750,000-1,000,000. My estimate: at least $2,000,000.
A couple of interesting things:
1. Now I finally know what happened to the Eliasberg 1796 no pole half cent (it seemed to disappear after the Eliasberg sale in 1996).
2. The early copper is few in number but amazing in quality. Who has ever seen a RB chain?
3. The auction estimates are a little light. Examples:
Lot 3008 1796 half cent, no pole PCGS MS67RB estimate: $750,000-1,200,000. My estimate at least $2,000,000.
Lot 3012 1793 cent, S-1, "Ameri." PCGS MS61 BN estimate: $250,000-300,000. My estimate: $600,000.
Lot 3013 1793 cent, chain S-3 PCGS MS-65RB estimate: $750,000-1,000,000. My estimate: at least $2,000,000.
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http://www.stacksbowers.com/Ne...D.BrentPogueCollection
Pogue III sale on February 9, 2016
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Rays:
I, too, found the catalogue estimate for the Garrett-Pogue S-3 to be oddly low. I have given the matter a great deal of thought. I have analyzed other high grade Chain cents and the prices realized that they realized in auctions, respectively.
Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 12 – The Amazing Garrett 1793 Chain Cent
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
The Eliasberg no pole 1796 half cent brought $763,750. Truly remarkable considering it last sold in a market trough (1996) for $506,000. By way of comparison, the Ray Rouse specimen graded PCGS F15 sold in 2008 for $345,000.
That sounds like a real bargain. Some of the early $5's looked pretty reasonable as well. Nice opportunity for anyone wanting to put away some great coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The Eliasberg no pole 1796 half cent brought $763,750. Truly remarkable considering it last sold in a market trough (1996) for $506,000. By way of comparison, the Ray Rouse specimen graded PCGS F15 sold in 2008 for $345,000.
That sounds like a real bargain. Some of the early $5's looked pretty reasonable as well. Nice opportunity for anyone wanting to put away some great coins.
Are you telling me that 1/3 to 1/2 of PCGS price guide is reasonable -)
I bet you are going to see a lot of minus sign tomorrow.
Personally, I believe that 2016 Jan/Feb stock market ruins this auction
The Eliasberg no pole 1796 half cent brought $763,750. Truly remarkable considering it last sold in a market trough (1996) for $506,000. By way of comparison, the Ray Rouse specimen graded PCGS F15 sold in 2008 for $345,000.
The 1796 No Pole 67 RB also brought less than the 65 BN that realized $891,250 in the 1-2014 Missouri Cabinet sale.
The 1793 Chain Ameri referenced in the first post did well, compared to estimates, at $470,000. But the Garrett 1793 chain cent PCGS MS-65 RB seemed rather low at $998,750, especially in light of Analyst's article where it seems to be viewed by some experts as more valuable than the PCGS-66 Brown that sold for $2.35 million.
I did not total the prices yet but this may be the first Pogue sale to not go way over the top estimates and seems to be well within them. What's going on in the ultra high end market? Is there a significant change occurring or was this sale just a quirk leaving an unusually good opportunity for those in that market? Some coins were strong, some within estimates though often toward the low side and others brought a notable amount less than expected or even less than their same auction appearances in the last 15 years or less.
There are always some that go lower in a major sale than before. Though seems there were a larger than usual number here. While some listed below met their estimates, as stated above many thought those estimates to be low and they seem meant to be blasted through. Just a few other examples:
1793 Half Cent PCGS 65 BN at $446,500 Est 400,000 to 500,000 Ex Missouri Cabinet sale at $718,750
1794 Half Cent PCGS 66 BN at $211,500 Est 200,000 to 300,000 Ex Missouri Cabinet sale at $299,750
1794 Half Cent PCGS 67 RB at $940,000 Est 600,000 to 800,000 Ex Missouri Cabinet sale at $1,150,000
1797 Half Cent PCGS 66 BN (PCGS). $293,750 Est 300,000 to 400,000 Ex Missouri Cabinet sale at $402,500
1822 Bust Dime PCGS-66 $129,250 Est 100,000 to 150,000 Ex Northern Bay Collection 2006 at $149,500
3146 1813 Half Eagle PCGS-66+ $223,500 Est 200,000 to 275,000 Ex Heritage 1-2005 at $230,000 and Ex Heritage 1-2007 at $316,500
I posted all of the hammer prices taken from the live auction online window here:
https://forums.collectors.c......&enterthread=y
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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WinLose:
Yes, it is of higher quality than the "PCGS-66 Brown that sold for $2.35 million" in January 2015. Some additional points should be mentioned. 1) Market prices are down at least 20% for choice early large cents since August 2015. 2) The price in January 2015 was strong and an auction record for any kind of copper coin. A copper pattern "Birch Cent" sold for more in the same FUN auction. 3) The top bidder for the Garrett-Pogue turned down an offer a day or two later that was much higher than the auction price. 4) I honestly believe that this price was just an anomaly as a I said in my review.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 14: Successful Third Auction Given Uncertain Market Conditions
In the same article, I mentioned auction records that were set in the Pogue III sale, for some $3 gold pieces and some silver coins. It just does make sense to interpret a whole auction by reading too much into the result for one coin! In any major coin auction, there will be coins that bring strong prices, moderate prices and weak prices; this is the nature of auctions in cultural domains. The Pogue III auction went much better than people in this forum are making it sound. I viewed all the coins and I was there.
What are Auction Prices?
I studied all Chain Cents in person (other than the PCGS 67) and the PCGS 66 BN has no marks at all and is the only one that looks 100% unc with all sharp details.
It was former NGC 67 and I actually would grade this coin MS 67.
The color of the 65 RB is nicer than at the 66 BN, but it looks less unc and less sharp to me - and it is has quite a few marks and scratches (you also can see them at PCGS coin facts if you magnify the picture there).
I graded the 65 RB a 64 RB (potentially not really unc) and I graded the 66 BN a 67 BN.
This is my opinion and grading.
At the end of the day I think everybody who spends millions of Dollars on coins - like I do - needs to have his own opinion and thoughts, before he or she makes a buying decisions.
I personally prefer the PCGS 66 BN quite a lot over the PCGS 65 RB.
Yes I agree, these are my two favorite coins (other than the SP 67), the SP 65 and the 66. Its hard for me to say which one I would prefer.
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A coin may have sharp details without being uncirculated or have less sharp details and be strictly uncirculated. My guess is that this remark indicates a mis-understanding of Chain cents. The S-2 and S-3 "AMERICA" cents feature a slightly different motif of Miss Liberty and there was less detail in the obverse die than there was in the obverse die used to strike S-4 'With Periods' cents. The level of detail in the die is different from the concept of a coin being uncirculated. When S-2 and S-3 "AMERICA" cents were struck, each had fuzzy areas about the ear of Miss Liberty.
It would not be a good idea to imply that the Parmelee-Brand-Parrino PCGS-66-Brown S-4 is 'more uncirculated' than the Garrett-Pogue S-3. There is no doubt about the Garrett-Pogue S-3 'AMERICA' chain cent being strictly uncirculated. If 'Private' is saying that personally prefers the style of the S-4 to that of the S-2 and S-3, then he is expressing an opinion about art, not about the quality of coins.
The Parmelee-Brand, PCGS-66-Brown S-4 was PCGS graded MS-65 (not 66) in 1992. No one I know indicated to me that it was then a candidate for an upgrade. The large cents in the Naftzger-Streiner deal in 1992 were not conservatively graded. This coin did not upgrade until 2014!
The Garrett-Pogue S-3 has been PCGS certified MS-65-Red & Brown since 1992. If it had just a little more red, then it would unquestionably qualify for a MS-66-Red & Brown certification.
For an 18th century copper coin, all other things being equal, it is not unusual for a certified MS-65-RB to be considered by experts to be of higher quality than an equivalent coin that is certified as 'MS-66-Brown.'
Denis Loring, a legendary expert in large cents, grades the Garrett-Pogue S-3 'AMERICA' Chain cent as two points higher than the Parmelee-Brand S-4 'With Periods' Chain cent that is mentioned by Private in this thread. Does 'Private' have a conflict of interest in this matter that is not being revealed here? I have never bought, sold or owned any part of a gem quality Chain cent.
Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 12 – The Amazing Garrett 1793 Chain Cent
insightful10@gmail.com
This is simply not true.
I saw the PCGS 66 BN Chain Cent in 2010 and it was graded NGC 67 back then and then downgraded to PCGS 66 in 2014 before being auctioned. Also not true is that the 1/2 Cent 1796 PCGS 67 RB changed since Eliasberg.
Regarding gradings there are huge differences and many opinions.
e.g. I am grading the Newman 1796 quarter NGC 67 a no grade, this coin should not be in any holder at all in my opinion, while others grade it as a 67.
Regarding the sharpness of the Chain Cent America without periods I do understand what Greg is referring to. The PCGS 64 coin has the same look regarding details and sharpness like the 65 RB. The PCGS 64 was former PCGS 63 and graded AU 55 in pre PCGS times. I think the PCGS 65 RB is the same quality of coin + some red, which of course makes it very special. I still grade the 65 RB chain cent 64 RB, potentially AU 55 with some red which makes it probably an unc.
BTW, I do like the 65 RB Chain Cent for the color a lot, which is much much better than at the PCGS 66 BN and it also speaks for the coin that it was graded MS 63 back in 1980 (and not AU 55), which I believe is mainly for the red in it. And I always said and wrote that the PCGS 65 RB coin is a 2 Million USD coin, you can read it in my other post from last week. It also doesnt matter if I grade it 64 RB, its still RB and 2 Mio. Even now after it sold for 1 Million USD, it is a 2 Million USD coin, because only 2 Million could have bought it potentially.
What I do not always like is the style how Greg writes. I do not appreciate him coming up with wrong facts and I also do not like that he is sometimes even more judgmental on grades than David Hall himself.
I also realize that there is a difference between a writer, a dealer and a collector.
Dealers and collectors always care about the market and the community, while writers dont have to. They do not participate in the market.
PRC.
I should have said 'did not upgrade at PCGS until 2014.' The Parmelee-Brand S-4 'With Periods' Chain cent was earlier PCGS certified MS-65-Brown.
Private:
It is true that the Parmelee-Brand PCGS-66-Brown Chain was PCGS graded 65 (not 66) in 1992, as I said. As for it being NGC graded as MS-67, even if true, that is beside the point of the post above. This coin did not a higher grade at PCGS until 2014. We are on the PCGS forum.
Private:
It had much more mint red and a strong brown/red contrast in 1996. It is not unusual for a copper coin to change in 19 years! I hypothesize that this coin would not receive a CAC sticker if it was downgraded to MS-66-Brown. Even not long after the Eliasberg '96 sale, the decision at PCGS to certfy this coin as MS-67-RB was a surprise to me and experts who I know. I was at the sale in 1996. I then discussed this coin with several experts. There is no one who more thoroughly researched this coin than I did. I am not only expressing my own opinions.
Private:
There are also mis-representations of differences of opinion. Once again, the Newman 1796 quarter was certified as "MS-67+*" ATS. Furtherm it has a CAC sticker. JD raved about it during a lot viewing session. Jason Carter, Matt Kleinsteuber and Richard Burdick all grade it as 67. Richard refers to it as one of the top three 1796 quarters that he has "ever seen" and he recounts that the late Doug Kaselitz was thrilled about it, too.
In any event, I am not just representing my own opinions. I am putting forth a great deal of time and effort doing research for the benefit of collectors. I will further research the Newman 1796 quarter.
Private:
One more time, the obverse die for the S-4 'With Periods' Chain cents has a slightly different manifestation of Miss Liberty than the obverse die for S-3 'AMERICA' Chain Cents. When struck, the 'With Periods' S-4 Chain cents had more detail than the S-3 or S-2 'AMERICA' chain cents. Additional detail does not make a S-4 more uncirculated than a S-3, as Private implies. He does not understand that the Garrett-Pogue S-3 and the Cardinal S-2 are just as uncirculated as the Parmelee-Brand S-4 'With Periods' that sold in January 2015. S-2 and S-3 Chain cents had fuzzy areas around the ear when they were struck!
Private:
As "Private" insists that John Albanese, Richard Burdick, and I are clearly wrong, perhaps it is worth considering whether any expert would agree with his remark above. Private seems to be saying that, without mint red, it grades "AU"! This is not true. The Garrett-Pogue S-3 would still be uncirculated even if its mint red faded away.
Private:
Denis Loring is the early copper expert listed here on the PCGS web site and is a consultant for PCGS CoinFacts. I have listed his qualifications in past articles. Although EAC people use different grading criteria, Loring maintains that the Garrett-Pogue S-3 PCGS-65-RB chain cent grades two increments higher than the Parmelee-Brand S-4 PCGS-66-BN Chain cent that was sold at auction in January 2015. As far as I know, all EAC experts maintain that the Garrett-Pogue S-3 'AMERICA' cent is of higher quality than the Parmelee-Brand S-4 'With Periods' Chain cent.
I am not expressing agreement with EAC grading practices. My point is that the superiority of the Garrett-Pogue S-3 is widely held among experts who engage in mainstream grading and by those who employ EAC grading criteria.
Again, it is not true that I am just expressing my opinions. I frequently discuss coins with leading experts and frequently quote them. Additional experts decline to be quoted. My articles are the best sources of information for collectors to learn about the quality of exciting rarities and other coins that are 'in the news'! There is no one who is doing more research, particularly about grades and various aspects of quality, regarding major rarities.
I face more scrutiny than anyone else, and I openly defend myself. Some participants in this forum are owners or sellers of the coins being discussed.
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 6: Auction Results for silver U.S. Coins
The Fabulous Eric Newman Coin Collection, part 3: Draped Bust Quarters
My grading is actually in line with Gregs view on the 1793 Chain Cent 66 BN,
The Parmelee-Brand, PCGS-66-Brown S-4 was PCGS graded MS-65 (not 66) in 1992.
In 1992 the PCGS 66 was PCGS 65, and the PCGS 64 no periods was AU 55, and all the PCGS 63 and PCGS 62 were AU 50. So that makes sense to me. Its all in relation.
I think the 1/2 Cent 1796 no pole is a wonderful and beautiful coin and I think its a 2 Mio USD coin, too.
Im also actually happy calling the 65 RB a 65 RB, because it really has some red and I think its a 2 Mio USD coin.
All these coins will be worth again full money and more in a few years.
PRC.
the 65 RB Chain Cent had no underbidder, it sold for the reserve of 800k hammer + 1 bid.
the 67 RB 1/2 Cent no pole had no underbidder too, it sold for the reserve + 1 bid.
And the 66 RB 1/2 Cent pole did not sell at all. It did not meet the reserve.
Im curious to see what happens in Pogue IV. All these numbers are very weak.
Also who could imagine a 1813 PCGS 66 half eagle would sell for 130k USD ? Even if it was not that nice.
The nice one sold for 230k USD, also PCGS 66 and thats a coin I would have figured 2 years ago at 500k USD.
Private:
Not all, it may be true that, of the gem large cents in the Naftzger-Streiner-Parrino deal, the Parmelee-Brand S-4 Chain is the only coin that now has a grade from PCGS (66) that is higher than the grade assigned in 1992, MS-65. I am not sure.
I would really have to engage in research to draw a conclusion about the grading history of all those in that unbelievable group. The Mickley-Morelan S-1 was certified PCGS SP-65BN, then and now; the same is true of the Mickley S-4 SP-67, and the A*****er S-5 SP-68RD Wreath. Did the PCGS certified 'MS-67RB' S-9 in Pogue III have the same certification in 1992? I believe so.
Private:
Undoubtedly, the Eliasberg-Pogue 1796 'No Pole' and the PCGS MS-67RB, Tettenhorst-Pogue 1794 are the two most famous half cents. Discussions about these are perennial.
The Missouri Half Cent Collection, Part II: Tettenhorst, Superb Gem 1794
IMO, there were other half cents in Pogue III that were better values, like the PCGS-65 1793, the PCGS-66RB 1794, and the really neat 1795 that was struck over a Talbot.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 14: Successful Third Auction Given Uncertain Market Conditions
Private:
Does Private really have information about reserves? My understanding is that there were no reserves. Indeed, my impression is that there are no reserves on any lots in the Pogue sales. The Pogues are letting the family coin collection go; the father is elderly and has other matters on his mind. Brent has some additional items in his own personal collection, though he does not seem to be collecting at the moment. An era is coming to an end.
Private:
The Pogue III sale went much better than many of the members of this forum suggest. In my review, I mention a few auction records that were set. There are more that I have not yet mentioned. I am currently writing about the Pogue Collection Capped Bust dimes and many of these sold for very strong prices. I already wrote about solid prices for bust halves from the 1830s.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Pt. 15: Reich Half Dollars from the 1830s
The sale was very weak, lower than all expectations, thats also why all copper has been pulled out of Pogue IV last week by the Pogue famlily. It was planned to be in there before Pogue III happened, 1 Cent 1793 Liberty Cap - 1807 Draped Bust.
The pcgs 64 and pcgs 63 chain cents are still called today EAC AU 55 and 50.
I loved the 1793 PCGS 65 half cent and bought it as I did buy the 1796 no pole and the 1794 pcgs 67.
the 1/2 cent 1794 pcgs 66 RB was a steal.
PRC
The coins were reserved at their low starting prices, a few did not sell. The starting price is the reserve price.
The sale was very weak, lower than all expectations, thats also why all copper has been pulled out of Pogue IV last week by the Pogue famlily. It was planned to be in there before Pogue III happened, 1 Cent 1793 Liberty Cap - 1807 Draped Bust.
The pcgs 64 and pcgs 63 chain cents are still called today EAC AU 55 and 50.
I loved the 1793 PCGS 65 half cent and bought it as I did buy the 1796 no pole and the 1794 pcgs 67.
the 1/2 cent 1794 pcgs 66 RB was a steal.
PRC
Weak and very weak overall is how most people I've talked to described it. I was wondering how IV and V would be handled. Thanks for the info
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The coins were reserved at their low starting prices, a few did not sell. The starting price is the reserve price.
The sale was very weak, lower than all expectations, thats also why all copper has been pulled out of Pogue IV last week by the Pogue famlily. It was planned to be in there before Pogue III happened, 1 Cent 1793 Liberty Cap - 1807 Draped Bust.
The pcgs 64 and pcgs 63 chain cents are still called today EAC AU 55 and 50.
I loved the 1793 PCGS 65 half cent and bought it as I did buy the 1796 no pole and the 1794 pcgs 67.
the 1/2 cent 1794 pcgs 66 RB was a steal.
PRC
So if all copper was pulled from Pouge IV --will it be offered in Pouge V or not be auctioned at all ?
PRC:
The eleventh term of sale on p. 336 of the PDF form of the Pogue III catalogue follows:
At the Pogue I sale in May, Chris K. made some kind of announcement to the effect that Stack's-Bowers had already bid on lots to 'get things started.' I do not now remember her exact words. I am almost certain that David or Charles have the announcement on video. My tentative interpretation of her statement, which could be incorrect, was not that the Pogues had established reserves; I believed that Stack's-Bowers or the Spectrum wholesale division had bid on some of the lots to ignite the sale. There were no reserves in Pogue I, as best as I can tell.
At the Pogue II sale in Sept., I believe that an auction company employee announced that there were no reserves. At Pogue III in February, I do not have a recollection of any kind of announcement that declared the existence of reserves. Does anyone else recollect the existence of reserves being announced? Perhaps PRC can explain how he has determined that there were reserves.
PRC:
Revelations by PRC are appreciated and certainly contribute to the educational value of this thread. As I already indicated, I devoted a whole article in 2014 to the PCGS MS-67RB 1794 half cent, which has become a legendary coin. PRC should be thrilled to own it!
The Missouri Half Cent Collection, Part II: Tettenhorst, Superb Gem 1794
The Tettenhorst-Pogue 1793 PCGS graded MS-65 half cent is under-appreciated. I discussed it at length in 2014, after it realized 718.5. In fairness to Stack's-Bowers, though, the 718.5 price in 2014 was strong and market levels for such half cents have since fallen by 20%. Even so, it was an excellent deal for PRC in 2016; the current auction price was a little below-market.
In 2014, I said, Copyright 2014 Greg Reynolds
The Missouri Half Cent Coin Collection, Part III: Astonishing $18.26 Million for Tettenhorst Set!
Mark:
This statement perhaps provides evidence as to why people who ignore my articles often do not have an understanding of events at major coin auctions. I mention many coins that brought strong prices in Pogue III in my review right after the sale, in my later article on Capped Bust halves in Pogue III and in my current article on Pogue Capped Bust dimes.
Please consider a few that I mention in my review after the sale.: 470k for a PCGS-61 Chain cent; $94k for a PCGS-66+ 1814 dime; $64+k for an 1830/29 dime; $94k for an 1831 PCGS-68 dime.
The 1823 Broken 3 half brought more in Pogue III than the exact same coin realized in the Jan. 2012 FUN event. I demonstrate in detail the strength of the price in Pogue III for the Eliasberg Proof 1827 half.
The 188k price for the Pogue 1854-D $3 is probably an auction record. The 329k price for the Pogue 1875 $3 gold coin is definitely an auction record.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 14: Successful Third Auction Given Uncertain Market Conditions
I mention many more strong prices in Pogue III in parts 15 and 16 of my series on the Pogue Family Collection.
There are reserves, there are RESERVES and then there's the potted palm in the back of the room...
Warning if you say weak you will be scolded with many words
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And regarding the reserves: there is no reserve in the common sense, where you are bidding against the reserve, but there is a starting bid which is not a real bid which is the same.