4sc and 56 mantle 8s

begsu1013 · November 22, 2015 2:09PM

some love to hate'em. others hate to love'em.

however, this is the stuff that simply doesn't look good and provides the first group w/ ample ammo. they land 2 1956 psa 8's and the first one is reaching for an 8, imo:

56 mantle 8 that just sold...

the next day this one is listed for sale:

another psa 8 and nicer.

maddux69 · November 22, 2015 2:18PM

Wait a minute, a 4SC scan you can zoom in on? Am I dreaming?

But still no back scan

begsu1013 · November 22, 2015 2:20PM

they usually put in a lil extra effort on the higher tiered cards.

surprised they haven't pictured the back on it though....

lawnmowerman · November 22, 2015 2:38PM

It actually takes more effort to not have the zoom enabled in their auctions being that it's the default when uploading pics. I'm not sure how to disable the zoom but I'm guessing it's done using the classic uploader option.

grote15 · November 22, 2015 2:45PM

Originally posted by: lawnmowerman

It actually takes more effort to not have the zoom enabled in their auctions being that it's the default when uploading pics. I'm not sure how to disable the zoom but I'm guessing it's done using the classic uploader option.

Matt, I believe the zoom is not enabled unless the scan size exceeds a certain size.

lawnmowerman · November 22, 2015 2:49PM

That makes sense Tim. Unless I'm crazy, I'm pretty sure there used to be an option to un-check the zoom but I can't find now.

KendallCat · November 22, 2015 9:36PM

Personally I would pass on both. First one the centering l/r would keep me away along with the giant print dot upper right birder section. Second one the overall eye appeal with the roughy cut, poor centering, and sort of a hump look to the card would do it. One thing is for sure - prices on 56's have a new floor. 6-9 months ago we started seeing $5-6k as the norm, and now $7-8k is the floor with nice examples fetching $10k.

packCollector · November 22, 2015 9:57PM

I would be happy with either card and don't have a problem with the grades on either, just have a problem with the high prices.

belz · November 22, 2015 10:36PM

I don't have a problem with the 8k price tag based on what I was seeing at the show this weekend...decent looking 8 in my opinion, but I think mine is a tad better

.

garnettstyle · November 22, 2015 11:47PM

Pretty nice cards for 4SC lol.

jfkheat · November 22, 2015 11:55PM

You can buy it off of their website for $7200.

James

56 Mantle @ 4SC

mrmint23 · November 23, 2015 12:20AM

The print dot above Mantle's head in the white border is a very common flaw. Second card, Also the edge wear on the top edge under the flip brings back memories of another card listed on this board. Cant remember exactly but I believe a major ebay auction company sold the card for a significant amount.

cards651 · November 23, 2015 12:28AM

4sc does a great job overall. Not an easy business. Still waiting for one, just one, of the various complainers to head down to their local banker, get a business loan and start to compete with 4sc. This is still a free country and competition is always welcome. I just can't find one company that comes anywhere close to their inventory.

belz · November 23, 2015 12:39AM

I've purcahsed cards from 4sc and agree...they've always done a stellar job with my purchases.

psychump · November 23, 2015 2:54AM

Except that they don't add a tracking # to my purchases, I enjoy shopping at 4SC. They even refunded me for a card that said no refunds! That first Mantle has a dinged corner or is it a shadow?

KendallCat · November 23, 2015 3:52AM

Originally posted by: mrmint23
The print dot above Mantle's head in the white border is a very common flaw. Second card, Also the edge wear on the top edge under the flip brings back memories of another card listed on this board. Cant remember exactly but I believe a major ebay auction company sold the card for a significant amount.

Correct - that is a very common flaw. With 331 examples in PSA 8 I would prefer to have examples without that flaw. Also, IMO both cards shown are average for the grade, and would have no problem spending $8k on a nice 56 Mantle - just not those two examples. I also agree in that I have picked up very nice cards from 4SC in the past at good prices.

DanBessette · November 23, 2015 3:53AM

I have bought a lot of cards from 4SC. I can think of 2 that had small defects I hadn't picked up because of the low-res scans. Everything else had been fairly graded and a happy purchase. My one criticism, and it's a small one, is that I wish they gave tracking on their packages.

garnettstyle · November 23, 2015 4:00AM

They need to add zoom to their pictures. They are still stuck in 2008.

KendallCat · November 23, 2015 4:37AM

Originally posted by: mrmint23
The print dot above Mantle's head in the white border is a very common flaw. Second card, Also the edge wear on the top edge under the flip brings back memories of another card listed on this board. Cant remember exactly but I believe a major ebay auction company sold the card for a significant amount.

Correct - that is a very common flaw. With 331 examples in PSA 8 I would prefer to have examples without that flaw. Also, IMO both cards shown are average for the grade, and would have no problem spending $8k on a nice 56 Mantle - just not those two examples. I also agree in that I have picked up very nice cards from 4SC in the past at good prices.

begsu1013 · November 23, 2015 4:40AM

I myself purchase cards from 4sc. not cornerstones, but definitely solid set fillers.

but what's the overall consensus that:

the first card deserves an 8?

the print flaw and top right corner ding eliminate the 8 for me...and of course, still cant see the back.

belz · November 23, 2015 5:43AM

begsu, that's a crazy stat in your tagline...wowsa, good stuff.

begsu1013 · November 23, 2015 6:44AM

looks like the other 8 just sold as well...

packCollector · November 23, 2015 7:59AM

Originally posted by: begsu1013

but what's the overall consensus that:

the first card deserves an 8?

I think the card is fine as an 8. If it wasn't an 8K card , if it is a 100 or 200 card , no one would be complaining and would probably be saying it is a solid 8.

Because it is a much more valuable card, that shouldn't change the grading standard. It does however change how much of a tolerance within the grade we as buyers have and whether we will accept the card into our collection.

Personally, for all of my purchases on cards over say 1K, I want it to be a superior looking example within the grade.

Estil · November 23, 2015 8:45AM

Well, their prices could be better but they were a big help in regards to me finally finishing up the PSA 7's (and 8's in 1978-79). Especially on days I qualified for 4x and 5x Ebay bucks

cards651 · November 24, 2015 1:40AM

After singing the praises of 4sc and by extension PSA, I find this listing today --

1970 Cheevers PSA 9

If you know this card, that's a big PD 'Print Defect' (on the uniform) that's missing from the grade. These are the listings that make me question being in the hobby.

The grader caught this one --

Cheevers with PD qualifier

$520 or $19 ???? (I realize it's 8(PD) vs. 9 but 9(PD) won't get a much better price.)

But the great news is you'll have a 'Pop Top'! PSA is shooting themselves in the foot with this Pop Tart thing. They should be figuring out a way to build interest in the mid-level grades. This type of price differential (along with missing a qualifier) just can't be good.

cards651 · November 24, 2015 1:50AM

I would add that this is where SMR pricing comes into play. A few years down the road, some poor soul will send that 9 into PSA for a new holder. PSA will say, "Oops, we missed the PD qualifier. Your new holder now has the PD qualifier and to show how we live up to our promises, we have sent you a check for the price difference between a PSA 9 and your new PSA 7 (equivalent of 9PD) based on current SMR prices....................."

packCollector · November 24, 2015 5:12AM

Originally posted by: cards651
I would add that this is where SMR pricing comes into play. A few years down the road, some poor soul will send that 9 into PSA for a new holder. PSA will say, "Oops, we missed the PD qualifier. Your new holder now has the PD qualifier and to show how we live up to our promises, we have sent you a check for the price difference between a PSA 9 and your new PSA 7 (equivalent of 9PD) based on current SMR prices....................."

If PSA has to buy back a card , it is not based on the SMR so this statement is not valid. I have had to have several cards bought back , including a near 5 figure card , and not once did we ever discuss SMR.

as for the cheevers, I don't know the issue but can someone shed some more light on it for me. I went to ebay and didn't see one card that looked different. There was some that looked like they had slightly less of the effect on the jersey but all of the cards almost looked the same.

and finally, are we sure this was submitted by 4sharp? cert does not look like a recent cert.

people are so ready to bash 4sharp. often we forget the size of their operation. they buy anything and everything from raw sets, fully graded sets , collections and unopened. they buy a lot of already graded sets and there stuff is not just things they submit. not saying that is the case with this card but it could be

cards651 · November 24, 2015 6:28AM

Mr. Pack -- I buy almost exclusively from 4sc so I'm not bashing them. The Print Defect on the Cheevers is extremely common. It's a roller mark when the ink was still wet. I linked both cards and both are from 4sc. The PD is very clear on both cards. It's even bigger on the 9, in fact. The grader just missed it. I don't even fault the grader as people make mistakes. The gist of my argument is that a small mistake like this results in a $480 price difference. It's just crazy. Always makes me wary of the hobby in general. I'm not bashing them but I believe my comments are reasonable. As to SMR, what's the purpose of it them? Almost everyone agrees the prices bear no resemblance to actual sales. They even price some cards that do not exist! Some of the hockey cards I collect do not have any 9s or 10s, yet SMR shows prices for them. It seems to be a figment of someone's imagination.

packCollector · November 24, 2015 7:11AM

Originally posted by: cards651
As to SMR, what's the purpose of it them?

can't answer that question as I don't use it I just know it is not used to be the basis for any type of buyback cheers

can you link a clean example of the cheevers, I know nothing about the issue but would like to see what a clean version looks like. thanks

DM23HOF · November 24, 2015 7:33AM

Originally posted by: cards651
The gist of my argument is that a small mistake like this results in a $480 price difference.

That difference will only be realized if someone doesn't use their eyes and purchases the grade. If that is the type of collector they are, and simply want the flip, then they are likely happy to have the sticker grade for their Registry Set GPA.

The great equalizer in the case of any misgrade or overgrade is the eye of the collector.

I see no logical reason to be "wary of a hobby" based on a simple misgrade-- because no one is forcing anyone to buy an overgraded card. A collector can just see it for what it is and simply choose not to buy it if one deems it a misgrade. The grade is just an opinion, and can often be wrong. The enormous amount of reviews, or crack resubs that result in different grade determinations from the prior determination proves this. In the end, it's the collector and how he sees the card.

cards651 · November 24, 2015 8:05AM

This probably works best. Just an eBay search of the 1970 Cheevers card.

eBay 1970 Cheevers

If you scroll down you can see lots of the PD types and a few without it. I tend to keep an eye out for this one so the whole subject and the wide price range just caught my attention. And I agree, every collector needs to be smart. I think it's a great example why you need to be real smart or you can lose some serious cash. The current collecting approach lends itself to this extreme pricing. I type all of this stuff for me as much as for anyone else -- telling myself don't chase after the extremes, stick to the middle of the road.

cards651 · November 24, 2015 8:08AM

Meant to add -- I don't expect you to defend SMR. I really just don't understand it. PSA is known for quality grading. Why in the world do they produce something that everyone seems to agree is useless?

cards651 · December 27, 2015 1:39PM

Here's one without the PD that is up for auction --

8.5 Cheevers -- No PD

Here's the one discussed earlier. May have sold on the 4sc website. --

9 No Qualifiers with PD

cards651 · December 27, 2015 1:43PM

No one is forcing anyone to buy the 9 of course but PSA is certifying that the card in the holder is a 9 which puts its value at just under $500. If properly graded 9(PD) it's a $20 to $30 card.

PMKAY · December 27, 2015 1:52PM

Originally posted by: DanBessette
I have bought a lot of cards from 4SC. I can think of 2 that had small defects I hadn't picked up because of the low-res scans. Everything else had been fairly graded and a happy purchase. My one criticism, and it's a small one, is that I wish they gave tracking on their packages.

My most recent purchase with them, total value less than $100 had tracking

cards651 · December 28, 2015 12:42AM

I love 4sc. I love PSA as well. My concern is that when errors are made (which can always occur), there is no remedy to fix them. Whoever relied on PSA (and 4sc to a degree) for that Cheevers card got burned.

cards651 · December 28, 2015 12:46AM

Here's an 8(PD) for $18

Cheevers 8(PD)

4sc and 56 mantle 8s

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