Why do collectors shy away from Vintage BVG graded cards?
Topps29
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I had a friend ask me the subject question and I did not have a solid answer to give him...
thoughts?
thoughts?
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Plus the potential for sheet cut cards.
James
Since very few people collect 2014 Topps registry sets and such, Beckett holds a slight advantage on sheer grading amounts of the newer product since most cards being graded for the past 20 years or so are mainly rookies and stars (very few if any commons). And Beckett pricing vs PSA for the newer stuff more than holds its own. Thus when the registry is of no consequence, the companies are virtually equal.
What really is strange is that the BVG pop report should make some of their cards as desirable if not more desirable because they do grade grade very toughly also. For example, the 1974 Topps Pete Rose pop report for Beckett show 1 BVG 9 and none higher for around 250 total gradings. PSA has graded 122 PSA 9's and 2 PSA 10's for 1,648 total gradings. The BVG 9 Rose should sale for at least as much as the PSA, probably more, but it wouldn't. There would be almost no way to figure out a price for the BVG Rose becuase ther are probably no 1974 registries being collected making market values unknown and non comparable.
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Having said that I have a submission in now with a couple of crack outs with BVG and SGC and I might have a different opinion if the results come back with EOT or Altered. I have seen plenty of BVG cards of HOF'ers that would not even come close to crossing over and always steer clear of those.
It has already been said but Beckett does well for the modern cards and PSA with Post War vintage.
I think the only think Beckett is useful for is grading modern autographed rookie cards, I still prefer to grade everything with PSA because I am OCD and and I like uniformity.
I'm not usually wild on BVG stuff, but I could see this crossing successfully.
Now that is one worth taking a shot with. I would crack it out and send it in. I have seen plenty of BVG 8's that would be lucky to land a PSA 7 on a cross. This one based on the front looks to have a great shot at a PSA 8 and possibly 8.5.
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Simple reason was PSA cards went for more money. One of the very first lessons I learned when I got back into collecting was that if I was going to spend my cash on cards always get the most desirable condition. Once grading became prevalent it was a no brainer to go with PSA.
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You might not have consciously made your decision with the Registry in mind, but it did determine your decision. The main reason the vintage cards sell for more in PSA holders is because of the Registry. Conversely, that also explains why BGS cards often sell for more with modern cards, as very few people are constructing modern sets on the Registry.
My main problem with Beckett is philosophical. The entire concept of their enterprise with BCCG is a complete disgrace which has done nothing but damage the hobby, with absolutely no upside.
SGC is another legitimate company with solid, professional grading.
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Would be an interesting study....I chose the Montana at random because of the number of cards graded. Sure there are probably some the other way, but if PSA is generally a grade or two less on grading, it makes more sense to compare the selling price of a BGS 8 to a PSA 7 than to compare prices at equal grading levels.
For me personally, that's why I tend to go with PSA over BVG, they're easier to find and the pricing is more available and consistent. I do have a few BVG vintage cards, but not a lot. As a guy who has setup at shows in the past couple years, PSA demand is definitely stronger although being in Texas (where Beckett is) I probably see more BVG and BGS stuff than a lot of others, as I'm sure the "locals" here prefer at times to go with the home team, so to speak. However, when I was at the National this year, there were FAR FAR MORE PSA vintage graded cards than BVG.
That all said, in my experience the grades are usually not quite equivalent, as others have also pointed out. I tend to evaluate BVG cards equivalent to one level down in PSA (so BVG 8 to PSA 7, etc.). It's not always true, but I think it's more accurate than not. Yes, every card needs to evaluated separately, and I'm sure there are some who do the crossovers who might have a different experience - I'm just telling you mine. Most of the 8s and 7s BVG I've seen/acquired were going to be 7s and 6s in PSA holders. The lower you go, the less difference I think it makes but at the high-mid to high-end range, it's generally going to be one grade.
I realize this next statement is somewhat broad as well, but again in my experience PSA tends to be more consistent than BVG does on vintage stuff. I'm sure there are exceptions and equivalents, but when I've layed down a stack of 7s or 8s in BVG from a particular set, they're not necessarily consistent. That's probably true in PSA as well, but at least for the things I've been collecting (mid 50s mostly) the PSA grades are much more consistent.
Final thought - while I think the registry helped generate some interest and demand, I don't think it plays a big role for the majority of collectors. I have no misimpression that I will EVER be in the top 5 of any of the vintage sets - it's not why I collect. I don't really care where I'm at in the registry, I want a nice looking set that I enjoy learning about and collecting. It's fun - the registry for me is more of a convenient way to know what I still need at any given time. It is "interesting" in some way to see where I stand, but that doesn't drive anything about my collecting. I care more about uniformity than I do overall grade, and most of the set collectors I know feel the same way. The competition angle of the registry is very overblown - the number of people who are actually doing that is very very small in the grade scheme of collecting.
I was not aware of the registry when I decided to choose PSA. In fact I am not even sure the registry was in existence. I saw there was a need for a company that accurately graded cards. I hadn't heard of BVG at the time, but I had purchased an ASA (remember Alan Hager?) graded "8" that was most likely a 5 or 6. VERY bad company, paid double "book" for the card and they wouldn't accept returns. PSA had the reputation even back in the grading infancy of not over grading. I also was only interested in cards in NM/MT or better condition and was tired of returning cards to sellers who claimed their items were "mint". This was before eBay, I believe, and was purchasing many of my cards through ads in SCD.
I LOVE it when people on the boards tell me why I did things. As I said in my earlier post, I saw that a PSA graded card sold for more than the competitors and discovered that their reputation was their graders were both better and more strict.
The registry had absolutely nothing to do with my decision as I was unaware of it when I decided to choose a TPG to grade my cards. Only much later did I discover the registry, join, and began grading my raw cards. After I saw my collection was going to be near the top of the Killebrew registry, I decided to see if I could achieve the #1 spot, but by then I had already decided PSA was the best. Of course I like the registry............now.
The question of whether PSA cards sell for more is only relevant when card is in the same grade. I would venture a guess (and I havent researched this, so I could be wrong or amazingly right), that if you take a card, any card, say a 1981 Joe Montana RC in PSA 8, prices have ranged from $122 to over $300. A BGS 8 has gone from $80-$120. So in the same grade the cards have a distinct difference in price, BUT if you send that BGS card to PSA, it would probably come in a 7, or even less, which in PSA would sell for, on average $65-$70. So in essence, if you have a high end Montana, you would be wise to send it to PSA and get the premium, but if you have a lower grade, Beckett might actually be a better option since a lot of people look at the number and not the card or the grading company.
Would be an interesting study....I chose the Montana at random because of the number of cards graded. Sure there are probably some the other way, but if PSA is generally a grade or two less on grading, it makes more sense to compare the selling price of a BGS 8 to a PSA 7 than to compare prices at equal grading levels.
I agree completely! If you are interested in collecting cards that are accurately graded and also have better value, PSA is the way to go (cards I collect are from 1955-1975).
Since there is generally little or no interest in low grade cards (or obviously overgraded cards) I don't see much of an advantage to go with any company that "overgrades".
If you have to compare one companies 8 to another's 9 that's fine, seems silly to have to admit your cards are not really as good as the grade claims. On vintage, PSA has obviously won the war. I don't collect modern, so I have no opinion on those cards although I have heard BVG has a better reputation there.
One note: there are some oddball items out there that PSA won't grade or has otherwise stopped grading even though they used to. SGC & BGS/BVG tend to grade a fair number of items that PSA does/will not.
One note: there are some oddball items out there that PSA won't grade or has otherwise stopped grading even though they used to. SGC & BGS/BVG tend to grade a fair number of items that PSA does/will not.
Well said! PSA has some strange ways of making decisions on the "oddball" items. I have had many arguments with them in the past that have left me scratching my head.
Well said! PSA has some strange ways of making decisions on the "oddball" items. I have had many arguments with them in the past that have left me scratching my head.
I just want them to put my oddballs in slabs. Why is that so much to ask? Use a different set of cert numbers or start the numbers with an X to specify the difference. Please take my money!
Simple reason was PSA cards went for more money."
JoeB, I apologize if my comment seemed presumptive or malicious. I was basing it on what you said in the previous post about the fact that you chose PSA because "PSA cards went for more money." If someone who had become a collector/buyer/seller in the past ten years had made this statement, I was only making the point that one of the main reasons PSA cards sell for more is because of the power the competition of the PSA Set Registry has on values. I too remember the days of waiting for Friday to come so I could sit down for hours with my SCD unfolded on the table scanning for hidden gems...
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I rarely buy BVG cards that were graded after they abandoned the sub grades.
Check out each card.
Brody BGS 9.5
Brody Signed
Notice how the card graded a 9.5 is much thinner then the other example. That card wouldn't grade if sent to PSA let alone get a Gem Mint grade.
"When I made my decision to go with PSA it had nothing to do with the registry, I wasn't even aware of it at the time.
Simple reason was PSA cards went for more money."
JoeB, I apologize if my comment seemed presumptive or malicious. I was basing it on what you said in the previous post about the fact that you chose PSA because "PSA cards went for more money." If someone who had become a collector/buyer/seller in the past ten years had made this statement, I was only making the point that one of the main reasons PSA cards sell for more is because of the power the competition of the PSA Set Registry has on values. I too remember the days of waiting for Friday to come so I could sit down for hours with my SCD unfolded on the table scanning for hidden gems...
No problem sir. I guess I have become over sensitive from some of the other posters comments in the past.
The problem with the Banks above crossing is I would be worried that it would come back authentic or something other than a grade...that's the problem with BVG for me, I just don't trust their vintage grading..and at the end of the day it's all about perception and reputation...BVG bad, PSA good.
If I used BVG bad, PSA good as a general rule, I'd have missed out on some nice cards. I don't place perception on anything other than appearance. How would this card look to me if it's NOT in a 3rd party graded holder?
The only concern is about tampering. I'd use my best judgement with the inspection of this, or any card, and live with my own decision. If I felt something was wrong, I'd return it.
I don't spend any time wondering how much more money the card could be worth in a PSA holder vs. any other company.
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I believe that BVG represents value if you buy cards that harken back to their time with sub grades. At some point BVG became much more lenient but I have bought several older BVG cards and have been satisfied that they are graded properly (and on occasion under graded). I have never tried to cross one (or sent in any card to be graded) because I buy the card to keep in my collection and do not care about consistency of slabs. I pretty much never sell cards just buy - however if there came a time when I needed to sell I would attempt to cross to PSA first.
I rarely buy BVG cards that were graded after they abandoned the sub grades.
I agree. BVG should have kept the subgrades. That would have been a desired features once the market understood it.
I have some vintage PSA 10's I purchased from 4SC. If I sent them in to Beckett, they would be lucky to grade an 8. People on here who say that PSA cards are better are delusional but then again this is a PSA forum.
I have seen some overgraded PSA cards. I am not familiar with Beckett and they may be better than PSA. My feelings are that PSA has won the vintage grading "war" and is the better choice. I am certainly not going to get my PSA cards graded again by someone else. SGC seems to be another good choice, but I have become kind of confused with the BVG, BCCG(?) and one of the companies switched from giving subgrades (I liked the subgrades) GAI seems to have gone down the drain. I have had some huge disagreements with PSA, but if someone starting out asked my opinion on who to use, I would say PSA.
Funny, I just looked at a GAI Killebrew/Allison card, looked overgraded and was mis-labeled "Tin Terrors" LOL
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I had this happen to me many times. When BVG originally listed the sub-grades on vintage cards they were much tougher. I did well on my crossover when cracking out and even had an Yvan Cournoyer 1965 Topps RC go from a BVG 7 in the holder to a PSA 8 without cracking it out. That is the first and only time, I received a bump in a card in another holder without cracking it out.
All of these coments are 6 years old. This is written on 04/22/2021 - ALL BVG & PSA are hot right now. I have older BVG when they show the grades for corners, surface, etc - and these are very desirable right now. I had a BVG T206 grade 4 - could not get even $80 a year ago - last month it sold for $450.
In my opinion old BVG with sub grades were stricter than PSA at the time. Their standards became more lax when they went to straight grades.