PCGS Stance on Debunked Cherry Picker Varieties - Jefferson Nickels

BigDowgie

What is the PCGS stance on continued attribution and Complete Variety inclusion when a variety is debunked in the Cherry Pickers Guide? I'm sure this is not new for other denominations. What happened with those?

Jefferson: 1941-S Inverted S

Manorcourtman

Good question? Anyone know

davewesen

There was a quarter that took a few years to get off the proof variety set.

keyman64

Not debunked but still a similar situation. A very minor Mercury Dime DDR (1941-S DDR FS-801)

made it into the CPG. fcloud submitted the first one to PCGS for attribution for his Reg Set that

PCGS had included the variety in. Upon seeing the coin in hand, PCGS determined the variety was

too minor to include in the Reg Set and removed the variety from the complete variety Merc Set.

This made fcloud pretty upset since considerable time and resources had been spent trying to

locate one. CPG has since decided that this variety will be removed from the main pages of the book

and put into the cross-reference list in the back of the next book.

BigDowgie

Does PCGS continue attributing those "debunked" varieties? What happens with the coins already attributed? Do these coins remain in the "Complete" Variety Sets?



These same questions apply to the varieties that were "delisted". The Jefferson Series had two of these.



These are very important questions for us variety collectors.

oih82w8

I believe that "debunked" varieties will not be attributed further and would be reclassified if sent in for reholdering or other action to be taken. Kinda like those "micro-O" Morgans from a little while ago.

BigDowgie

oih82w8,



Does the coin stay in the "complete" variety set listings or is it removed? Whether it remains or is removed, a bunch of collectors are going to be really PO'ed, as the price will drop to regular coin values. In some cases for the 1941-S Inverted S, there were some nice dollars paid out for some!!

oih82w8

BD, short answer...I don't know. It may wind up being another 1902-O Micro O Morgan or Henning Nickel where there will be a following of some esoteric collectors. It is till there today in the Jefferson Nickels FS Complete Variety Set, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1938-Present)..."who knows what tomorrow will bring"?





Up Where We Belong


Joe er fet. Jennifer Warnes (1982)




NOTE: do you believe the editing software bleeped out part of a talented music artist name??? Get real.

WaterSport

Any debunked varieties will be removed from the Variety set. There are 4 to be delisted in the Lincoln Series once they load the New CPG updates in to the variety sets. I have seen a couple of folks already selling them off on Ebay knowing they will not be worth a thing when the word is out.



WS

oih82w8

WS,

I was thinking the same thing; sell...sell...sell, but I my long-winded response was dumped by the new forum software...probably took too much time.

sparky64

The scenarios cited are difficult situations.



I can understand a change of mind. It happens but there has to be a point of no return.



The example Keyman mentioned is right at the brink, imho. I'd be fuming too if that happened to me.

RadioContestKing

For three years I and another member spent countless hours and alot of money searching for the 1962 Proof Quarter DDO 101



They even showed a Proof 65 in the population report. All of a sudden two months ago the other member told me that are sets are 100 percent complete?



I went and looked and sure enough pcgs removed the coin from the registry and ALSO the one in the Pop reports.



No explanation at all. Kinda sad at all the money and time spent searching for a coin that apparently never existed...........Enjoy

BigDowgie

What would be the appropriate way to approach our gracious host to publish their position when a variety is "debunked" or "delisted"? I think it would be pretty simple to craft that information and make it available. Why do we all have to guess or spend money submitting coins that they may just keep and then return the coin unattributed?



Why is this so hard people? Just put it on the table and be done! Some people will get a little twerked off, but someone always does.

19Lyds

For the "casual" readers and lurkers it is very important that the proper terminology be used.



Debunked = "exposed the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)"

Minor Variety = A true variety but very minor in nature

Delisted by the CPG = Moved to the Appendixes but the FS Number is still Retained



If a particular variety is "debunked", this means that research has determined that it is not really what folks thought it was as in the case of the Micro O Morgan Dollars. As such, it is removed from future attributions and publications.



If a particular variety is deemed "too minor" then PCGS/NGC will probably remove it from certain registry sets. However, since the FS Number is still viable, the coin will continue to be graded and attributed as the variety that it is.



The CPG is a popular publication which lists "popular" coin varieties but it is in no way the Numismatic Bible. What this means is that there are many varieties out there which simply are not listed in the CPG because they are not very well known and/or very popular.



The 1977-D DDO Kennedy resided in the CPG Appendixes in 2006 and even had a viable FS Number associated with the coin which is an easily distinguishable DDO. However, since it was in the Appendix, PCGS would not attribute the coin.



In 2012 when the COG Fifth Edition, Volume II came out, the exact same coin was listed in the body of the book and as such, PCGS began attributing it. It is not a "minor variety" by any means.



The CPG, on the other hand, may, at times, determine that a particular variety does not have the "popularity" (in the open market) required to remain in the body of the book and will not "debunk" the variety but will instead, move it to the appendices while retaining it's "FS" number.



This doesn't mean that the variety doesn't exist. It only means that the variety has, more or less, dropped off the popularity radar.



Typically, these varieties are flagged with the following:



"Note: Because of its low Interest Factor, this variety will be removed from this chapter in the next edition of this volume, to make room for more popularly collected pieces."



The term "Interest Factor" is key and represents a very fine line with the open market. Generally meaning, a varieties popularity is often "fueled" by the CPG and the TPG's willingness to require it in a particular registry set. (Which came first? The Chicken or the Egg)



Two coins I can think of fall into this class. The 1970-D DDR Washington (FS-801) and the 1970-D DDR Washington (FS-802)



Both are excellent examples of die doubling but both can also be found in US Mint Sets. Given the fact that the doubling is not in the "major" classification (such as the 1974-D DDO Kennedy) and the fact that they can still be found in 1970 Mint Sets, both coins simply are not commanding the premiums they once did as relatively "new" CPG Varieties. These facts are determined to mean that the coin have "Low Interest"?



There are other coins which will be moved to the appendices in future CPG's for the above reason and as such, may very well be removed from certain TPG Registry Sets BUT.....that does not change the fact that the coins are still valid varieties.



Die Hard variety collectors will also recognize that initial introduction to the market place of a previously "unknown" variety often comes with a price and depending upon urgency, whether or not they will be willing to pay that price knowing full well that the price will not be sustainable.



More than likely, these collectors already have these pieces.



To sum up, if a variety is debunked, it no longer gets listed, no longer gets attributed and any coins which have already been attributed as the debunked variety simply become a historical footnote.



If a variety gets moved to the CPG Appendix, it "might" (at least I'm hoping so) continue to get attributed but will probably NOT continue to get listed in certain registry sets.



PCGS will certainly have their work cut out for them when the Sixth Edition of Volume II comes out to address these concerns.



I'm of the opinion that having a coin move to the appendix of the CPG is a WHOLE LOT BETTER than having the coin "debunked".

BigDowgie

19Lyds,



Very nice reply and laid out very nicely!



So the short answer is, a "debunked" coin will most likely be removed from "Complete" Variety Sets. Then the lucky folks that own one (or more, in my case) a regular 1941-S in an unusually labeled PCGS holder?



Thanks again