Slides into second..

skrezyna23

Wanted to hear your opinions on whether or not something more should be done to protect middle infielders on DP attempts. I understand it's been a part of the game for a very long time but with two players (both SS) getting knocked out for the season on "controversial" slides I think something has to be done.

Utley slides into Tejada

Cohglin slides into Kang

mlbfan2

I think that play will lead to a rule change. Slides like that can add excitement to the game, but baseball will be just fine without them. I don't think baseball lost too many fans when they almost eliminated collisions at home plate.

Tomi

Still don't get how Utley completely missed second in the slide and was ruled safe on the replay. Just pathetic.

Tabe

I think they need to be banned.

By allowing them, basically you're saying it's OK for a guy who is out after a force to knock down the defensive player. That's dumb.

Tabe

<< <i>Still don't get how Utley completely missed second in the slide and was ruled safe on the replay. Just pathetic. >>


It's in the rules that way. If the force is missed AND the runner misses the base, the runner is safe. The umpires got it right.

MCMLVTopps

7.09
It is interference by a batter or a runner when --
(a) After a third strike he hinders the catcher in his attempt to field the ball;
(b) Before two are out and a runner on third base, the batter hinders a fielder in making a play at home base; the runner is out;
(c) Any member or members of the offensive team stand or gather around any base to which a runner is advancing, to confuse, hinder or add to the difficulty of the fielders. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate or teammates;
(d) Any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;
Rule 7.09(d) Comment: If the batter or a runner continues to advance after he has been put out, he shall not by that act alone be considered as confusing, hindering or impeding the fielders.
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.
(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference.

Looks pretty clear to me. Utley began his slide beyond the bag, not towards or into the bag. Undoubtedly he had no intention of harming Tajeda, but he did.
I say runner and batter out based on highlighted MLB rule above. The umpire got in wrong.

mlbfan2

<< <i> (e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.
>>



That rule does not apply. The fielder (Tejada) was not fielding a batted ball. He caught a throw from the 2B.

Justacommeman

<< <i>

<< <i> (e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.
>>



That rule does not apply. The fielder (Tejada) was not fielding a batted ball. He caught a throw from the 2B. >>



This is correct.

Since the beginning of time we have been taught to take out the middle infielder and break up the double play at second Utley did just that. Change the rule if you want a different result. There have been 3 other slides in these playoffs alone that have looked similar to this. No doubt this is the most aggressive of the lot. Draw a line in sand next year and live with it.

Face it, the only reason Utley is being suspended is to prevent back lash the next two games in NY. Ironical basebal is taking preventive safety measurements to protect Utley. Let's see if Harvey drills the Dodgers short stop regardless

mark

MCMLVTopps

Well...according to rule 2, definitions, "A fielder is any defensive player"...thus (IMO), while the ball was being received from the 2nd basemen, both the 2nd baseman and SS (Tejada) were in the combined act of fielding a batted ball. In this case via transfer...nonetheless, both were "fielders" and the rule by definition applies.

How else would the ball get from the 2nd baseman to any position player covering 2nd base? Obviously to another "fielder". Example...the left fielder catches a deep fly ball (key word "fielder") and has a killer throw to homeplate which the catcher (another "fielder") catches the ball and tags the advancing runner from 3rd base out. Point is, all 9 players are defensive fielders, what else could they be? No matter how the ball in play gets to the objective, it often times moves from one fielder to another. Ray Charles could see that Utley was deliberately interfering with the play.

or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action

Got no dog in the hunt here, my Red Sox were long gone in May. However, it is blatantly obvious to me that Utley was not sliding for the bag, but was intentionally trying to slide into Tejada. As stated, I don't think he meant to hurt Tejada, but his actions did so.

I suspect Utley will hear the wrath of Mets fans tonight...if he's allowed to play.

Stewie

mark said it perfectly. My first reaction to news of Utley's suspension was that Torre is trying to protect him, the game and the city from any potential backlash. It's too predictable. The fans would make certain that the moment won't be forgotten. They'll do that anyways.

The game has taken another hit. To respond this way to what is generally considered as everyday baseball - seriously! - Torre has now put more pressure on the umps by showing a lack of faith in their own interpretation of the play. They got it right. Tejada was out of position. They cannot and should not take responsibility for an accident.

mlbfan2

<< <i>Well...according to rule 2, definitions, "A fielder is any defensive player"...thus (IMO), while the ball was being received from the 2nd basemen, both the 2nd baseman and SS (Tejada) were in the combined act of fielding a batted ball. In this case via transfer...nonetheless, both were "fielders" and the rule by definition applies.
>>



No. I'm a former umpire. As I said before, the rule does not apply. There's no such thing as "the combined act of fielding a batted ball."

Slides just like that happen many times per season in MLB. The only real difference with Utley's slide is that Tejada wasn't able to get out of the way like the fielders usually are. The runner can slide to the left or right of the base as long as they're within reach of it. Utley's hand went right over the base, so he was within reach of it. No matter what the rules might say, this is how MLB umpires consistently call these plays. Calling Utley out might be the "right" call, but it wouldn't be consistent.

JoeBanzai

I saw the replay and thought he was close enough to the bag. It has always been the fielders responsibility to get out of the way.

I also wonder what the reaction would be if this would have happened to a Cal Ripken type SS.

Rules might have to be changed. All the sports seem to be adapting to try to lessen injuries. The games evolve.

SDSportsFan

Here is the rule Torre quoted:

Rule 5.09a(13)"

"(13) A preceding runner shall, in the umpire’s judgment,
intentionally interfere with a fielder who is attempting to
catch a thrown ball or to throw a ball in an attempt to
complete any play;

Rule 5.09(a)(13) Comment (Rule 6.05(m) Comment): The
objective of this rule is to penalize the offensive team for deliberate,
unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner in
leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the
pivot man on a double play, rather than trying to reach the base.
Obviously this is an umpire’s judgment play."


The key to me, are the words "action by the runner in leaving the baseline". The rule has always been interpreted that as long as the runner is within reach of the base, he is in the baseline. Uttley was clearly within reach of second base, therefore, the slide was completely legal.

Steve

Tabe

Rule 7.09(d) applies here, at least prior to the review:

Any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate


This is the rule supports my earlier post:



<< <i>By allowing them, basically you're saying it's OK for a guy who is out after a force to knock down the defensive player. That's dumb. >>

skrezyna23

This is what Cal Ripken Jr said during the TBS airing when asked by Ron Darling if the play was dirty:

Darling: ¡°You like that slide (by Utley), Cal?¡± Darling pointedly asked. ¡°You don¡¯t think that¡¯s dirty?¡±

Ripken: ¡°That¡¯s a hard-nosed play,¡± he said. ¡°You just look (at it) more different because he (Tejada) was trying to turn around and make an acrobatic throw.¡±

¡°It looks like a real violent collision,¡± Ripken said as another replay aired in the seventh. ¡°It would be a hard collision anyway. But that (slide) coming in, in my opinion, just to break up a double play? That was normal.¡±

Darling: ¡°So, you (will) go on the record, Cal, as saying that (Utley¡¯s slide) is a clean play, that¡¯s a hard playoff play, that¡¯s a dirty play, what do you say?¡±

Ripken: ¡°I think it looked a lot worse than it was by Tejada trying to turn and throw from that angle,¡± Ripken said. ¡°So yeah, I think that was a hard, clean play.¡±


Link to article with quotes

Utley could have touched the bag if he reached for it but to me that's utterly besides the point. His aim was to take him out and he did exactly that, breaking his leg with a very late slide. If this actually happened to Ripken, I would have a hard time believing he would be okay with it.

Justacommeman

<< <i>This is what Cal Ripken Jr said during the TBS airing when asked by Ron Darling if the play was dirty:

Darling: ¡°You like that slide (by Utley), Cal?¡± Darling pointedly asked. ¡°You don¡¯t think that¡¯s dirty?¡±

Ripken: ¡°That¡¯s a hard-nosed play,¡± he said. ¡°You just look (at it) more different because he (Tejada) was trying to turn around and make an acrobatic throw.¡±

¡°It looks like a real violent collision,¡± Ripken said as another replay aired in the seventh. ¡°It would be a hard collision anyway. But that (slide) coming in, in my opinion, just to break up a double play? That was normal.¡±

Darling: ¡°So, you (will) go on the record, Cal, as saying that (Utley¡¯s slide) is a clean play, that¡¯s a hard playoff play, that¡¯s a dirty play, what do you say?¡±

Ripken: ¡°I think it looked a lot worse than it was by Tejada trying to turn and throw from that angle,¡± Ripken said. ¡°So yeah, I think that was a hard, clean play.¡±


Link to article with quotes

Utley could have touched the bag if he reached for it but to me that's utterly besides the point. His aim was to take him out and he did exactly that, breaking his leg with a very late slide. If this actually happened to Ripken, I would have a hard time believing he would be okay with it. >>



Yes I would believe Cal would have been ok with it. He was on the giving and receiving ends plenty of times. Utley did what he was taught since he or anyone else who played the game first laced up the spikes. Did you happen to see the Hal McRae slide they showed to illustrate the point that plays like this are not unprecedented? That's was awesome. McRae and Randolph almost both ended up in the outfield grass

I believe this was a playoff game as well. You so what you have to do to break up a double play.



mark

wrestlingcardking

I think the rule will be for the runner to slide to the base.....if the fielder fields behind the bag he will be given protection but not so much if he takes the ball in front of the bag.... Utley's slide was late and although we have watched that play for years it will be changed for next season.

Tabe

Why bring up the McRae play? It's not legal now and wasn't seen as clean back then. No relevance whatsoever to Utley's play unless you're just trying to say his wasn't the worst ever.

Justacommeman

<< <i>Why bring up the McRae play? It's not legal now and wasn't seen as clean back then. No relevance whatsoever to Utley's play unless you're just trying to say his wasn't the worst ever. >>



I actually didn't. ESPN brought it up as well as the Rose/Harrelson play to illustrate that play off baseball is ratcheted up a notch. I'm 100% fine and 100% positivd Utley did his job just as most gritty major leagues would have done it that spot.

mark

Tabe

<< <i>

<< <i>Why bring up the McRae play? It's not legal now and wasn't seen as clean back then. No relevance whatsoever to Utley's play unless you're just trying to say his wasn't the worst ever. >>



I actually didn't. ESPN brought it up as well as the Rose/Harrelson play to illustrate that play off baseball is ratcheted up a notch. I'm 100% fine and 100% positivd Utley did his job just as most gritty major leagues would have done it that spot.

mark >>


What time limit would you place on a runner who has already been put out before knocking down a defender becomes illegal?