<< <i>I disagree. I sell them almost daily. To me they are a great historic series; 50 different silver designs. There are also many mint-marked issues that are very scarce. >>
I agree Julian. I'll gladly and happily keep my 50 piece, toners typeset collection in PCGS Secure Plus with the ever-popular green and gold stickers (one or the other on each) until some far future date. I'm not concerned they won't sell for strong prices. >>
<< <i>I disagree. I sell them almost daily. To me they are a great historic series; 50 different silver designs. There are also many mint-marked issues that are very scarce. >>
I readily agree. A good profit series for dealers who can turn over their inventory in a reasonable period to collectors. The dealers don't have to accept the risk of longer term ownership. Pinnacle, Legend, and other high end dealers always have commems in stock and seem to move them. Legend has been stating for the past 10+ years what great deals original sets of commems are. And maybe they are in some respects. It hasn't kept them from going down in price. Commems aren't alone. The choice/gem pre-1933 US coin market "in general" (of which classic commems are a part) has not it made it back to the 1989 highs.
The downward trajectory since 2006 is exactly what choice-gem/generic gold has done. They both peaked 2 years before the rest of the coin market. Maybe there's a sliver of hope here. But if that 1983 support breaks the next levels are 1980-1981 which is another 24-40% decline. Still, that would be 15X to 18x what this index started out at in 1970. It reached an incredible 118X gain from 1970 to 1990....quite the bubble.
On a positive note it seems like a great opportunity to build a collection as in years to come you might hear folks wishing they did while prices where down.
As a collector I wouldn't mind if the whole market would tank for a while so I could buy some coins, medals, & tokens on my want list I'm not comfortable writing a check for now.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Profit motives are always a factor, of course, but as a collectible they have merit that is often over looked or denigrated. You could make a very interesting display of an issue with its accompanying marketing materials. Where these coins shamelessly promoted when they were originally issued? Sure. How it was done would tell an interesting story. And the mailers these coins came in-- usually high sulfur cardboard or heavy paper- can go a long way to help distinguish original toning from non. When I actively collected these, a lot of this material was out there. I regret that I didn't pick some of it up then.
Collector since adolescent days in the early 1960's. Mostly inactive now, but I enjoy coin periodicals and books and coin shows as health permits.
<< <i>Of course, the wildly toned ones are still very popular and expensive. But anything short of that is completely dead.
I'm sure there are multiple reasons for this, but I think the biggest problem is that slabs and internet auctions have made it so easy to find the coins that they're no longer any fun to collect.
Agreed? >>
I think the biggest problem is the increasing pops in high grades. 15 years ago a PCGS grant* in 66 was 18/3. Now it is 27/12. Just an example of a low pop tough issue. Worse for less rare commems.
Well I still have about 3 dozen of them in grades from raw to 66 mostly in 65 PCGS and NGC holders bought in the mid 1990's. Sold a few about 10 years back. Still like em' a lot. Low mintages, neat designs. Reminds me I need to pull them out and look at them soon!
I think an additional issue is the history associated with these pieces. Collectors tend to like stories of coins being used as our country was growing and wish the coins could "talk". Colonials, southern gold, territorial gold, and other coins that were used provide a sense of history.
When you read the stories of the classic commems, many stories are often of greed, politics, coin dealing and manipulation, even infuriating collectors of the day when the pieces were first struck.
For example, the Arkansas half dollar was minted over several years with different designs. The original issue was secretly purchased by a prominent coin dealer and resold for almost 3x the intended issue price. The coin dealer also had smaller mintages of D and S coins struck to require acquisition of more coins to complete a set.
When you read about the history of these coins, it tarnishes not only the coins themselves, but some very prominent coin dealers as well, so there's may not be a great sense of nostalgia to be had with the history of these.
The monster toners are in a different market because those may be acquired more for their looks and less their nostalgia.
I like classic commems under $300. I have a few for eye candy for my cases at shows. Retail one every now and then. Oregon, Cali, Texas, Pilgrim, Bay Bridge, Long Island my favorites. Without advancing market prices for these it is a difficult road to make money on this material.
The classic commem market has not performed well and there is a lot of competition on these. Some have become tired of them because of multiple periods buying them then selling at loss for cash flow. Others have decided there are other areas for their money. The supply has exceeded the demand.
Many mod slabbed silver commem dollars in MS / PR 69 I have been able to buy at melt + $15 or less. These are nice coins with lots of silver content.
Competition from computer accessories, entertainment venues, and video games like GTA Online is probably another factor.
I think about building a nice MS63-65 set of the 48 coins just because they're so cheap now. Some 66s are barely selling for more than the 65s are. (Iowa, San Deigo, Rhode Island, Norfolk and BTWs)
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
Ironically, as this discussion has been on-going, I have been bidding on (and eventually winning) a 47-S BTW in MS 67. I'll pay a bit less than $1,300. Ten years ago a similarly graded coin sold for about $16,000 and somewhat thereafter another sold for about $8,000. Those coins were not fantastic toners--they were white, as is my (new) coin. One reason for the fall in price is the pops. When the $16,000 coin sold, it was 1 of 2 in the grade. The pop is now 28. So, if I was an owner of a 47-S BTW, I'd be sitting on a large loss. But, as someone buying the coin, I am certainly happy with the fall in price.
There are 2 sets of classic commems, the top tier of beautifully toned examples and all the rest. I only follow the prices of the former and they continue to do very well.
But the gradeflation in this series is as rampant as any. Not long ago there were no Grants (no stars) graded above 67. Now there are 3 in 67+. I recognize previously lower graded coins in higher grade plastic on a regular basis. Dealers turn them in to PCGS in droves to get the bump, and often get it.
Unlike some here I love the series and coin designs. To me there is nothing more enjoyable to look at than a full 50 coin set of classic commems with beautiful toning. It is not easy to do.
I like classic commems up to $350 in cost Beyond that no real interest. I like grades MS64-66. I am not into expensive toned coins (not much into toned coins period) or ultra high grade examples. I prefer coins which are Brilliant, Wellstruck, with nice luster, coins I consider PQ. I shun coins with black spots, ugly dark toning or heavily tarnished that look like they were run over by a truck. Most collectors I sell classic commems have similar taste and are looking for a nice looking affordable coin to fill hole, most prefer brilliant Gem BU specimens. No registry hobbyists in this group.
With this market as low as it is I wonder if it is poised for an uptick or not. Irregardless it could be a great buying opportunity. Frankly demand has to catch up with supply. I have been bulking up on these here and there.
These coins have had a 25+ downward trend, I like them but I think they could continue down. These coins in mid to lower grades used to be very popular new collectors, moderns seem to be filling that need. Some day these will come roaring back, just not sure I will still be alive, I occasionally buy if I really like the coin.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>I disagree. I sell them almost daily. To me they are a great historic series; 50 different silver designs. There are also many mint-marked issues that are very scarce. >>
I agree Julian. I'll gladly and happily keep my 50 piece, toners typeset collection in PCGS Secure Plus with the ever-popular green and gold stickers (one or the other on each) until some far future date. I'm not concerned they won't sell for strong prices. >>
I agree tcmitssr.
<< <i>I disagree. I sell them almost daily. To me they are a great historic series; 50 different silver designs. There are also many mint-marked issues that are very scarce. >>
I readily agree. A good profit series for dealers who can turn over their inventory in a reasonable period to collectors. The dealers don't have to accept the risk of longer term ownership. Pinnacle, Legend, and other high end dealers always have commems in stock and seem to move them. Legend has been stating for the past 10+ years what great deals original sets of commems are. And maybe they are in some respects. It hasn't kept them from going down in price. Commems aren't alone. The choice/gem pre-1933 US coin market "in general" (of which classic commems are a part) has not it made it back to the 1989 highs.
The PCGS 3000 chart looks pretty horrible since the 1989 peak
Commem price chart looks even worse.....back to the 1998 lows which equates to 1983.
The decline since 2006 looks to be getting near the end
The downward trajectory since 2006 is exactly what choice-gem/generic gold has done. They both peaked 2 years before the rest of the coin market. Maybe there's a sliver of hope here. But if that 1983 support breaks the next levels are 1980-1981 which is another 24-40% decline. Still, that would be 15X to 18x what this index started out at in 1970. It reached an incredible 118X gain from 1970 to 1990....quite the bubble.
As a collector I wouldn't mind if the whole market would tank for a while so I could buy some coins, medals, & tokens on my want list I'm not comfortable writing a check for now.
-They're not attractive (by design).
-They're not 'real' coins.
JMHO.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>Of course, the wildly toned ones are still very popular and expensive. But anything short of that is completely dead.
I'm sure there are multiple reasons for this, but I think the biggest problem is that slabs and internet auctions have made it so easy to find the coins that they're no longer any fun to collect.
Agreed? >>
I think the biggest problem is the increasing pops in high grades. 15 years ago a PCGS grant* in 66 was 18/3. Now it is 27/12. Just an example of a low pop tough issue. Worse for less rare commems.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
100% Positive BST transactions
When you read the stories of the classic commems, many stories are often of greed, politics, coin dealing and manipulation, even infuriating collectors of the day when the pieces were first struck.
For example, the Arkansas half dollar was minted over several years with different designs. The original issue was secretly purchased by a prominent coin dealer and resold for almost 3x the intended issue price. The coin dealer also had smaller mintages of D and S coins struck to require acquisition of more coins to complete a set.
When you read about the history of these coins, it tarnishes not only the coins themselves, but some very prominent coin dealers as well, so there's may not be a great sense of nostalgia to be had with the history of these.
The monster toners are in a different market because those may be acquired more for their looks and less their nostalgia.
The classic commem market has not performed well and there is a lot of competition on these. Some have become tired of them because of multiple periods buying them then selling at loss for cash flow. Others have decided there are other areas for their money. The supply has exceeded the demand.
Many mod slabbed silver commem dollars in MS / PR 69 I have been able to buy at melt + $15 or less. These are nice coins with lots of silver content.
Competition from computer accessories, entertainment venues, and video games like GTA Online is probably another factor.
U.S. Type Set
I also have a hard time associating any civil war theme commem with an 1861-65 seated or gold coin.
I only follow the prices of the former and they continue to do very well.
But the gradeflation in this series is as rampant as any. Not long ago there were no Grants (no stars)
graded above 67. Now there are 3 in 67+. I recognize previously lower graded coins in higher grade plastic
on a regular basis. Dealers turn them in to PCGS in droves to get the bump, and often get it.
Unlike some here I love the series and coin designs. To me there is nothing more enjoyable to look
at than a full 50 coin set of classic commems with beautiful toning. It is not easy to do.
With this market as low as it is I wonder if it is poised for an uptick or not. Irregardless it could be a great buying opportunity. Frankly demand has to catch up with supply. I have been bulking up on these here and there.
<< <i>-They're not rare.
-They're not attractive (by design).
-They're not 'real' coins.
JMHO. >>
...and some modern "crap set" put together by the Mint, like the First Ladies dollar" is?