LB Expo Lot - 1797 Aachen 12 Heller Surface Originality

neildrobertson

As many of you on this forum appear to have done, I have been watching and participating int he LB World Coin auction this week. I have been actually very happy with the offerings in the areas I am interested. The availability definitely exceeded by budget this time around.

One lot I was particularly impressed with was #33103 A 1797 Aachen 12 Heller. It's one of the most common 18th century German States minors in low grades, but I have only seen 2 examples of this type in mint state in the US over the past 3 years. I bought the other one. As a certain conditional rarity, it is a good buy for whoever won it. I am still not convinced that a well-struck, centered example even exists.

My question is: Is it reasonable to assume that coins this old with that much red have original surfaces? I usually don't see anything red from before 1840. This one has that kind of pinkish color that I've seen some cleaned copper coins get. Could anyone more experienced with 17th/18th century coppers weigh in?

7Jaguars

I agree, suspicious for cleaning and mild retone....

JCMhouston

Of course it's hard to tell without actually holding the coin in hand, but it does have a somewhat questionable look to it. I've got a few red 18th C. coppers, but they certainly aren't that color red.

brg5658

It is possible for copper this old to be red. But, it's not the norm. I have never seen a copper coin from before around 1770 that was Red and looked original. And, most copper from this era that is "red" has a mellowed reddish-brown look about it. There are a few RD designated Conder tokens from the 1790s that are certainly original, but sometimes have specks or spots.

I don't generally care for the look of so-called "RD" designated copper as it is often spotty or fly-specked (or becomes that way sometime during its life). I think copper coins with mellowed RB or BN surfaces are much more stable, not to mention much more attractive. Just my opinions.

lordmarcovan

I wouldn't have questioned the red on that coin, personally. While others would be right to be suspicious for the reasons mentioned, that particu!lar piece didn't look glaringly "off" to me. Besides, it seemingly passed muster with NGC and had mellowed enough to receive the RB designation. Who knows what it looks like in hand.

CIVITAS

We actually sold that coin in 2007 raw. The color seemed OK in hand at the time. I don't think it's as pink as the photo would have you believe.

Here's our old photo:



I think some old coppers that are still very red were lacquered many years ago protecting them from oxidizing. The lacquer was likely removed in the last 10 or 20 years on many specimens that get graded (since the TPGs won't allow them in holder with lacquer on them, theoretically). You see a lot of lacquer on 19th century European proof coins, including coppers.

That being said, I think there's plenty of old copper that has been "touched up" too. Can the difference be told? Sometimes, but I'm guessing not always.