Could this ever happen to coin dealers?

TopographicOceans

According to an article in the Wall Street Journal, the Government is listening in on calls between brokers and customers.
The purpose is of course is for possible prosecution for fraud.

Securities brokers are a different breed of the same animal as coin dealers, each trying to sell you something to make a profit.

But would it ever come to the point where a coin dealer is recorded and prosecuted for telling a customer "This coin is a solid MS67 at PCGS, full of luster and would have no problem crossing over if you wanted to. And I can let you have it for 25% below the MS67 price."

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Wall Street has a message for its traders: Watch what you say.

At large banks in the U.S. and Europe, traders' everyday activities are being recorded and monitored more often than ever before.
Lately, banks and their regulators have focused on perusing the minutiae of phone conversations traders have each day with colleagues, competitors and customers.

The U.S. government is using audio recordings in probes examining whether bond traders at different Wall Street firms crossed the blurry line between salesmanship and misleading customers, according to a person familiar with the investigation.

Two Deutsche Bank AG traders ... were fired in June after the bank reviewed communications with customers, including phone records, in response to a regulatory request for information on certain bond-trading practices, regulatory records and the person familiar with the situation said.


WSJ Article

Christos

Big brother is becoming very very brazen for a free society.

amwldcoin

They are close!

I have a friend who recently purchased a building to move his coin shop to. He's been with his bank for over 20 years and applied for a loan to update the building. Everything was far above OK. Credit Score,equity etc. The bank refused his loan quoting the Patriot Act. They are unable to loan money to coin dealers due to the ease of being able to Launder money! I don't know if this is true, but he told me the only business the Small Business Administration is forbidden from making loans to is Coin Dealers!

bronco2078

<< <i>They are close!

I have a friend who recently purchased a building to move his coin shop to. He's been with his bank for over 20 years and applied for a loan to update the building. Everything was far above OK. Credit Score,equity etc. The bank refused his loan quoting the Patriot Act. They are unable to loan money to coin dealers due to the ease of being able to Launder money! I don't know if this is true, but he told me the only business the Small Business Administration is forbidden from making loans to is Coin Dealers! >>




The only business where its easier to launder money than a coin shop is ........ well a bank I guess. Does the SBA loan to banks?

Broadstruck

<< <i>The only business where its easier to launder money than a coin shop is ........ well a bank I guess. Does the SBA loan to banks? >>



Barber shops and Pizza shops see far more cash then Coin shops.

Walkerfan

<< <i>Big brother is becoming very very brazen for a free society. >>





It seems that almost anything is possible these days...

MrEureka

But would it ever come to the point where a coin dealer is recorded and prosecuted for telling a customer "This coin is a solid MS67 at PCGS, full of luster and would have no problem crossing over if you wanted to. And I can let you have it for 25% below the MS67 price."

I'm no lawyer, but I think that if a sufficiently unsophisticated customer recorded that conversation, he might very well have recourse against the seller.

And if enough customers had similar stories, I could see the government going after the dealer.

mrearlygold

No surprise at all.

Disgusting

HandH

Andy, the buyer wouldn't be too unsophisticated if they were recording conversations of negotiations.

MrEureka

And with respect to the government investigations mentioned in the WSJ article, it sounds like the calls were recorded by the banks, which is probably standard practice. So all the government needs is a search warrant.

It might be more difficult to "get the goods" on a crooked coin telemarketer.

MrEureka

Andy, the buyer wouldn't be too unsophisticated if they were recording conversations of negotiations.

They wouldn't need to be completely unsophisticated in every way. They would just need to be unsophisticated with respect to the coin market.

keyman64

I was a stock broker in the late 90s when EVERYTHING WENT UP! There were plenty of Federal Investigations going on back then for things like this
and for churning accounts. Not really new.

The big difference between coin dealers and stock/bond brokers is the level of REGULATION. So, my answer is NO, this cannot happen so easily
with coin dealers. Could it, sure. As easily, no way...far from it! Anyone can be investigated for crimes, certainly. The difficulty of making a case
that would get wire taps approved in the case of coin dealer will be much much more difficult as things stand right now.

amwldcoin

<< <i>

<< <i>They are close!

I have a friend who recently purchased a building to move his coin shop to. He's been with his bank for over 20 years and applied for a loan to update the building. Everything was far above OK. Credit Score,equity etc. The bank refused his loan quoting the Patriot Act. They are unable to loan money to coin dealers due to the ease of being able to Launder money! I don't know if this is true, but he told me the only business the Small Business Administration is forbidden from making loans to is Coin Dealers! >>




The only business where its easier to launder money than a coin shop is ........ well a bank I guess. Does the SBA loan to banks? >>



I have no idea if Banks can get a loan from the SBA. I do know all banks are under a very heavy government Thumb of regulations now! Equity can't get a mortgage now if they can't show income....even if they are have collateral worth many multiples of the loan requested. Believe me I know this!

DaveG

This article isn't about calls between brokers and customers (otherwise known as the "retail" securities business), it's about calls between traders on the institutional side of the business (that is, employees of a securities firm and employees at another securities firm or a mutual fund). These calls have been routinely recorded by the employers (bank, securities firm, mutual fund, etc.) for decades and they are discoverable by lawyers in civil and criminal actions.

The Government isn't doing the recording - the Government is seeking the recordings from the employers.

As has been stated, the securities and investment industries are heavily regulated and employees (stockbrokers, insurance salesmen, etc.) who sell securities and other regulated products to the public are licensed by a number of authorities.

As we all know, coin dealers aren't licensed, nor is the coin business regulated.

It used to be illegal for one party to a telephone conversation to record a call between himself and another party (such as a customer and a coin dealer or salesman) without informing the other party. It was also illegal for a third party to do it. I presume it still is.

DoubleEagle59

There is a definite and steady progression of taking away one's rights (Patriot Act), getting rid of and limiting Cash transactions and eavesdropping on one's 'private' conversations.

Add it all up and you should get a picture of our future.

roadrunner

<< <i>The only business where its easier to launder money than a coin shop is ........ well a bank I guess. Does the SBA loan to banks?............

I have no idea if Banks can get a loan from the SBA. I do know all banks are under a very heavy government Thumb of regulations now! Equity can't get a mortgage now if they can't show income....even if they are have collateral worth many multiples of the loan requested. Believe me I know this! >>




There's no heavy govt thumb of regulations for the big banks. Read the HSBC account below from 2000-2013 and it will make your skin crawl....money laundering of every conceivable type.....and immune from prosecution. HSBC did pay a paltry $1.9 BILL fine for decades of abuse. Coincidentally, HSBC is the custodian for the "gold backed" ETF fund GLD. Rest assured, they play it 100% by the book there......

HSBC and UBS

ctf_error_coins

Paranoia runs deep in some on this forum.

asheland

<< <i>Big brother is becoming very very brazen for a free society. >>


+1

silverpop

if you have nothing to hide then why worry?

oih82w8

<< <i>They are close!

I have a friend who recently purchased a building to move his coin shop to. He's been with his bank for over 20 years and applied for a loan to update the building. Everything was far above OK. Credit Score,equity etc. The bank refused his loan quoting the Patriot Act. They are unable to loan money to coin dealers due to the ease of being able to Launder money! I don't know if this is true, but he told me the only business the Small Business Administration is forbidden from making loans to is Coin Dealers! >>



Is this why the names have changed to "Gold and Silver Exchange"?

ShadyDave

<< <i>if you have nothing to hide then why worry? >>



It has nothing to do with "hiding" anything, it has to do with the slowly eroding rights and privacy we all have as Americans. Each day, it seems like business is getting harder to conduct. If you have never read the book 1984, I suggest you do and you might understand why giving up a bit of privacy here and a bit there adds up and can get dangerous and almost impossible to get back.


I work in the legal department of a large financial services company and we are required to record calls between customer service, sales desks and the public when talking about securities. That costs a lot of money for systems, data storage, employees and countless other overhead costs...and each company has to incur those costs, that are then passed onto customers. We get "discovery" requests when clients, state/federal governing bodies are ready to launch an investigation and they have the right to take possession of all that documentation.


I don't ever see this happening with coin/pm shops: there doesn't seem to be a public outcry for regulations like this. If a counterfeiting operation is at work, the Secret Service/FBI would usually get involved pretty quickly depending what is being forged. Otherwise, i think the mantra "Caveat emptor" should reign king.

19Lyds

<< <i>According to an article in the Wall Street Journal, the Government is listening in on calls between brokers and customers.
The purpose is of course is for possible prosecution for fraud.

Securities brokers are a different breed of the same animal as coin dealers, each trying to sell you something to make a profit.

But would it ever come to the point where a coin dealer is recorded and prosecuted for telling a customer "This coin is a solid MS67 at PCGS, full of luster and would have no problem crossing over if you wanted to. And I can let you have it for 25% below the MS67 price."

---

Wall Street has a message for its traders: Watch what you say.

At large banks in the U.S. and Europe, traders' everyday activities are being recorded and monitored more often than ever before.
Lately, banks and their regulators have focused on perusing the minutiae of phone conversations traders have each day with colleagues, competitors and customers.

The U.S. government is using audio recordings in probes examining whether bond traders at different Wall Street firms crossed the blurry line between salesmanship and misleading customers, according to a person familiar with the investigation.

Two Deutsche Bank AG traders ... were fired in June after the bank reviewed communications with customers, including phone records, in response to a regulatory request for information on certain bond-trading practices, regulatory records and the person familiar with the situation said.


WSJ Article >>

Maybe in Minnesota??

TwoSides2aCoin

Must be a NOobie